The ancient Night Elf civilisation was far from flawless, they were xenophobic, arrogant, extremely caste-driven, and obsessed with power. It was basically a younger version of Melnibone, but working it’s way towards the same kind of decadence.
Because these are minor anecdotes and media coverage rarely goes over ‘Alliance player says mean things to Horde player’. It is a sampling issue that’s further misapplied to a massive group.
And that’s the problem. You’re painting some hundreds of thousands of people with one brush over a video game.
I’ve had enough about Nuremburg Trials, reparations, and demands for murder, torture, and genocide of Horde. It is a video game where every expansion there’s a quest to clean up some poop. But I try not to let that taint my view of Alliance players.
I mean, I do. Over years I’ve seen a lot of it from both sides. It just feeds into each other. Which is by design from Blizzard, they actively encourage both groups to be that way.
It is absolutely confirmation bias when you’ve been a jerk in this very thread. Even the concept of the thread is clearly a bit wanky.
No one will ever prove themselves if they’re treated a certain way. Hence the loop. I used to really rag on the Horde. But when I try to not be a jerk (not always easy), it always gets better results.
At the end of the day, you can do whatever you want. But there’s no question that being hostile will garner more hostility (and eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind). Trying to be understanding will build more understanding.
Christie Golden has gotten flack in general for her self-inserts. Propping up her favorites like Anduin and Calia. And like, tweeting to specifically say Anduin isn’t homosexual? On this flipside, Danuser has gotten flack for Nathanos and Sylvanas. Being a Blizzard writer and active on Twitter is a volatile combination.
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I’d be willing to admit that incidents described generally didn’t happen the other way, with Alliance trash-talking Hordies in such a manner. It’s got less to do with the in-game lore, and probably more about how the Horde became the capital-G Gamer faction in vanilla.
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Actually what I see is the tribalism you’re displaying now. The blanket brush painting of an entire player group based on your interactions with a couple of vocal people on this forum.
The Horde does have a bit of gothic and biker appeal to them, but that’s hardly as pure a picture of the Horde now as opposed to when it was just orcs, trolls, undead,and tauren. It still does draw the same kind of people that would cosplay as Klingons, and those folk on the whole are good and mutually supportive people. Playing a Horde race is generally playing a race that’s either considered monstrous or has been rejected by the "norms’ of the Alliance. That builds a kind of camaraderie that’s not seen in Alliance races, which distrust each other only less than they distrust those outside.
Forums such as these draw the toxic and loudest of a culture base. They’re more distorted funhouse mirrors than a true vision.
There are issues with how Blizzard has made the two factions. The Horde racials favor raiding which why all the top raid groups are Horde. Alliance racials are geared more towards the leveling experience and become less relevant in raids. The resulting preponderance of Horde guilds at the elite end of play has a cultural effect on the player base.
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Yall need to go outside. Seriously, I’ve been in many fandom and Warcraft is the only one that spawns people who somehow blame the fans for what fictional characters do.
Can you imagine saying you’re a n*zi for liking Darth Vader?
Oh wait, that happened, never mind, carry on.
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Ohhh you are a victim of biased media coverage … I see! Well that makes sense of course… no that your faction just is toxic in its core.
Pretty sure the media coverage is the reaon why my view on them is so bad, bot their actions and behaviour I expeirenced myself.
yes of course, it is cooler when you can bully without fearing consequences. And the ones demanding siad consequences are thus bad and annyoing and obnoxious and shouldn’t be allowed to talk and so on… right?
I understand it. Getting some of the poison back is not fun…
No Blizzard is not to blaim. Blizzard paints a very clear (yet sometimes nuenced) picture. No matter how you turn it Genocide IS genocide and it is horrible. It is not blizzard fault when players of teh commiting faction are cheering and joying over burned children. Blizzard painted a horrible event the reaction was not blizzard. It was the plyers.
The question is at some point, do I want better results? It doesn’t change things. I wont convince the “sylvnas did nuffing wrong” faction to ackknowledge that genocide is PRETTY WRONG.
Why shoudl I even bother anymore? I have learned that you don’t convince people. They preserve their believes no matter what… people change their believes only if a severe incident happens.
So what is my goal? Not getting people to see that XYY is wrong. But just to tell them based on their actions, views and behaviour that at least I dislike them and feel disgusted by it.
What has that to do with her expeirencing the horde faction of being composed and infected, even contaminated by a deep core of toxic players. In such a dramatic way that even she noticed it on the fly.
I think and I am deeply convinced that most of the horde players are in deep and utter denial of how bad their faction is bahaving, perecieved and seen because of their own action.
Is everyone in the horde bad? No of course not … but they fail to ackknowledge their rotten core and deny it. They even deny discussion about it an dgo full on defense mode … even becoming aggressive as hell and thus proving the accusations right.
That is my issue I have with this faction and a lot of members of such.
The ones who arent toxic are at least be ok with it.
This is what I mean with the horde is composed of mayjor toxicity.
I might be not able to express myself here the way I want to… But that is my issue I have with this faction.
The amount of people being toxic and just jerks is just astonishigly high within THIS faction and no amount of whataboutism or apologism changes that.
It does not mean … an I want to apologize for this here, that every hord eplayer is a jerk or toxic.
I just want to say that the amount of them is extremely high in that faction AND it gets cultivated there.
And I am sadly a direct product of that toxic behaviour, i am fed up by this to a point where I am no longer even interested to understand it.
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Honey blizzard does not have a gun to your head saying you have to defend genocide lol if you listen to the devs they want you to hate Sylvanas and her loyalist they want you to want to rip out the cancer in the horde if you are defending Sylvanas war crimes that’s on you
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I wouldn’t say biased. But flawed sampling is a thing.
There’s a difference to me between demanding consequences and demanding murder, torture, genocide, and war crime trials in a fantasy video game.
And I didn’t say they shouldn’t be allowed to talk.
I don’t like it on either side, lol. I don’t like Alliance or Horde demanding torture and genocide.
I’m pretty sure Blizzard has specifically said they want to give Alliance and Horde players reason to dislike each other.
In an interview Ion said ‘World of Warcraft has always been shades of gray, NOTHING is black and white’, or close to that. Yet I still see players on both sides asking for genocide.
Well I think better by definition is more desirable.
Because there’s a lot of people in the middle ground that aren’t ‘sylvnas did nuffing wrong’ that are cool/reasonable people when people aren’t jerks to them.
I disagree, both in myself and others, people can be convinced. Not everyone, of course.
I don’t even know the tweet you’re referencing. But that the writers get a lot of hate from all sides (with Golden being a specifically heavy pro-Alliance writer) and that Twitter is a bad media for understanding hundreds of thousands of people.
Well because you haven’t even proved that. You have hundreds of thousands of people and expect them to be responsible for some jerks of unknown size that exist on both sides of a video game fandom.
Look, I get it. Trying to deal with amorphos groups of so many people with bad experiences mixed in (that is encouraged by the designers) will breed a certain mindset. But at the end of the day, what does adding vitriol do? What does saying ‘I dislike you and feel disgusted by your group’ do? It feeds hate. You push more reasonable people against you. Which in turn pushes reasonable people on the other side to be more aggressive. And it just feeds into a cycle of people being jerks.
You only get back what you put in. Putting out negativity to others will inevitably give you more negativity. Putting out positivity will at the very least if not bring back more positivity, it’ll bring back less negativity. And if we’re accepting negativity is bad (that we dislike people being jerks) then trying to be understanding seems inherently better than a route of self-destructive argumentation.
I’m hardly a saint. But I think aiming for good results will always work out better.
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You were told on EU forums that there is no collective hivemind among players, and that you can find edgelords everywhere and that is not a reason to condemn thousands of players that happen to play red team (and they do it for multiple reasons).
But I see that you completely disregarded that and continue to cultivate tribalistic view which is something you accused of a huge amount of playerbase. To call it ironic is understatement.
You call people toxic for merely disagreeing with you, and yet you’re the one who is spouting that you hate the Horde players. So half of playerbase you never had a chance to meet.
Here is a newsflash - nowadays a lot of people play both sides to see the other point of view. You can find both good and bad people everywhere, surely someone who claims to study psychology would know such basics, right?
And surely you would know each person will differ when it comes to opinions and it would be wiser to treat people individually than painting them with wide brush.
But I’m sorry I got in your way of making toxic example of yourself. Please carry on.
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That is what I say, you basically want to deny every consequence that you don’t like. But a “punishment” that you are ok with is hardly a punishment at all.
And there is a huge difference if one player demands payback genocide, OR a civilized solution that would be held in modern worlds like a trial.
That is the issue there are two solutions completely antithetical but none of them are good for you because if would be consequences.
And you fail to accept that for alliance players and ESPECIALLY NE players having no consequences is even worse than what has allready happened.
That is what I hate about most horde players, they want to be the ones getting to punch someone but not recieving said punches.
This is one of the big issues I have. You have had the “fun” but once it is the other ones turn, you want to change the rules or weaponize morality against it like “you won’t be better, see bad alliance wants genocide !!111”
Personally, you know my stance, I am against the alliance doing a genocide on theirbehalf, especially as NEs, it doesn’t suite them. But we have built in mechaniques into our races core whoa re perfect for this situations: Wardens.
We have a whole group of special agents and inquisitors who hunt down criminals in a brutal and unyielding unmercyfull way. This is what NEs are about and it should be used against the horde and tehy shoudl at least feel the same amount of conseuqences as NEs have felt with WoT. Not necessarily genocide but euqaually crippeling, dramtic and severe.
That are my demands and Horde players who are denying it are hypocritical and disgusting for me.
Like I’ve said above. I want equally severe, dramatic and crippeling and humiliating consequences for the Horde faction. BUT that doesn’t mean genocide or torture.
Having Wardens patroule inside Orgrimmar, here and there accusing people or taking them with them woudl be something that I see suiteable.
Teldrassil was meant to be occupied. Well then Orgrimmar should be with all consequences for the horde for some time.
Like it has sbeen said. You can dislkike a faction or character, but it is you as the player if you come to the forums and laugh about burning children and how cool it is to burn down a playebale race and how all of them are losers and garbage and so on. Been there. Seen that.
No you don’t just see players asking for it the Horde has DONE it. So no that is not “grey” that is as dark and grim as it can be.
No matter if blizzard themselves says that is not evil… normal moral standards are: it is. Think for yourself you don’t need blizzard to tell you wether or not genocide is evil or not.
Not many in my opinion and that is the core issue that I have tried to point out. Or lets say it this way: Your extremists shift the middle ground pretty far to the extreme end. So even the middle groudn is pretty bad to start with.
And you don’t see THIS as a problem?!
Even if she is pro-alliance the fact that she gets harassed especially from horde players is a proven fact of my claims of that faction being toxic as hell. Just because she is not pro horde is a free ticket to harass her and her personal preference?!
I did, just above for example, you just want to deny and apologize it. Maybe even not wanting to see it that way. Don’t know.
Question is, why is there allways that mindset within horde players that they are allowed to behave like jerks but when alliance players do it equally in response they point their finger like “see you ar eno better haha!!” Totally ignoring that they have opened up that level of behaviour …why is it that horde players assume alliance players allways have to present their other cheek to them aswell?! Why do we have to be the nice guys even when abused all the time?
I’m done with that on my part. You reap what you saw.
Or in other terms: “Why should the alliance players break teh cylce of hatred you started. It is YOUR garbage you clean it up.” To be honest, whenever someone uses this citation of Sylvanas I puke, because this is the same attitude.
Horde players started it but now alliance players are expected to break it and get over it. No you have to attone for it! Literally and in a game sense.
Alliance players are fed up and done being the idiots who are expected to forgive all the abuse …
It is astonishing how deeply ingame story and offgame player behaviour is linked.
You basically tell me a version of “the horde has changed” … well show me! But don’t make me believe you just because you say so and expect me to thus act accordingly.
Tell you what: I also get that if I don’t put in.
That is the sole point of my accusations.
This way I at least get to put in aswell and have you feel the same poison.
Here’s a problem that I see continuing to crop up in these accusations you make.
It’s true that SOME horde players might just not give a crap and partied like it was Burning Man. But if someone’s bemoaning the fact that they ended up being the villains who were wrong and narratively deserve a righteous booty-spanking, then odds are they didn’t like the action that villainized them in the first place. So I think it’s normal for people, like me for example, to give some pushback over punishment even if it makes narrative sense, because this never felt like a win to be compensated for in the first place, especially when the path that led us here hardly made narrative sense in the first place.
The unfortunate part is that there’s absolutely no way to truly balance everything out, because the score looks different depending on the person playing. You think the horde’s +1 to your -1; I feel like both sides are at -1. To me, what you advocate for is a score of -2 to 0. It looks fair to you because the different aspects of the playerbase are tracking different scores.
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I never thought I’d see a rabid night elf fan that’d surpass that of Elesana and Akiyass but congrats Liira, you’ve taken the #1 spot.
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And that is the problem:
The only time the Horde has a porblem with teldrassil is not because “crap genocide is wrong, or its no ok to do that o a playable race or faction etc” … they have a problem with it for soley egoistic reasons because they are seen as villians now.
THAT is their issue.
Not the “damn it destroyed the NEs players fun” but “damn I am the victim i am seen as a villian now”.
That is the whole point why some of the horde fanbois even came op with theories why the burned children were actually to blaim for it and its their own fault … WHAT THE HECK?!
And thus you deny the other faction the consequences because you even dare to victimize yourself here.
Fact is: Your faction did that. No matter if you like it or no, I also didn’t like that my favourit race was genocided. Guess what?! Noone asked me either.
But I want the logical consequences for it then, same way as I have now to deal with the consequences OF SAID GENOCIDE!
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I’m saying things that are unpleasant from a gameplay aspect. I don’t think players should be punished for story aspects they don’t control, the point of a game is to be fun.
Not for me. Again, as an Alliance player I really don’t care for brutalization or harsh post-war punishments. Personally I’d rather see building cooperation.
If you remember how this topic came up, it was ‘Blizzard paints a very clear picture’. They don’t, they’ve said they intentionally try to make it muddy. That’s their design.
I see a problem that Twitter is very toxic at all and any Warcraft writers will be getting hate. I didn’t say it was ok, but that it isn’t a unique issue to the Horde that there are fringe toxic people.
That’s not proof.
I don’t think Horde players should be behaving like jerks. I try to call people out on either end as much as I can tolerate.
Well I’m saying it to you can only control your own actions. Even saying they started it is questionable, but you can only do what you can do. I say the same thing to Horde players that are jerks. Again, it isn’t unique.
Not the same, no. I know this isn’t true. We even see specific parts of this thread where hate against you is from your own actions of being a jerk.
Again, eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. You’re intentionally focusing on spreading and perpetuating negativity instead of good. So you’re nearly as bad.
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Why is this an issue at all? Why is it wrong for a player to want to enjoy the game they play? Of COURSE I got frustrated over it from a personal or egoistic point of view. I’m playing a pulpy hero fantasy game where you’re meant to self-insert into your character.
I’m not blind to the concept of night elf players being upset that their preferred race got the big G. I sympathize and I don’t try to diminish those feelings. I’m not going to claim to be pristinely unbiased, but I don’t think it’s wrong for me to express my own grievances about what these story beats meant for my own enjoyment as a player.
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Liira, honestly, at this point it feels like you want Horde players to be punished because that one Orc Warrior killed you in world PvP once and told you to “G o Ba c k to r E T a i l”.
Really, it doesn’t seem like you want justice or a good story, you just want Horde players as a collective to not have fun in this game at any cost simply because you didn’t. And it’s somehow their fault. Because you came across three people who taunted you and made you upset.
Never mind the fact that plenty if not most Horde stans who care about the story hated their time in BfA and some (as they said themselves) had to stop playing their characters.
And please, please don’t say “Horde players started it” or “most of Horde players are jerks”. That’s your clearly very biased point of view.
And that’s another thread derailed, BTW, I am not proud of myself for replying to it…
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Have I been in controll to be able to prevent the Horde from doing that?! Was I in controll of that narrative?! I was punished anyway!
I don’t It would be again a “Dreanor is free” with NO consequences. We can talk about building AFTER the punishment. After the consequences that are as harsh as Teldrassil.
Before that every push for “we shoudl stop destroing now after i have destroyed everything and fear to get it back” feels hypocritical.
It was BS from teh start. You have seen sylvanas standing before burned teldrassil. Everyone but the horde players who were in denial knew what happened. Blizzard just did damage controll here. Or even some guys within blizzard are equally in denial.
I mean someone at blizzard had to say yes to a frecking a-hole singing on stage about killing alliance PLAYERS! Someone at blizzard had to allow that!!
I have to make on thing clear: I don’t mind. Really I don’t.
I have recieved so much BS from horde players during BFA start, this is kindergarden. I don’t see myself as a victim, I know that I polarize and provocate certain behaviour. It will make people lose their masks.
Yes. But better than letting you blind me and get away with it. In that case you at least get the same consequences.
Because it is purely egoistic and you deny the other factions to get their fun back just in order to not get in the same situation as they have been.
Stepping on other peoples sandcastle is fun and game, as long as yours don’t get stepped on.
That is teh attitude of Horde players.
Like I said, hord eplayers step onto other peopels sandcastels and then play vicim when they are told they shoudl receive the same treatment.
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This is literally the sentiment I jumped in to try to address. It wasn’t fun for me.
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What people’s sandcastles did “Horde players” step on? Did the Horde players write BfA’s story?
I feel like my sandcastle was firmly stepped on. So much so there’s little of it left.
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Wasn’t the first time, was it?
Theramore? You guys still fist pump it …
Gilneas? Same … screw the worgen players.
You just pretend to have an issue with Teldrassil because this tiem you couldn’t twist it around for it to not being completely unjustifyable evil.
If Nes would have stole you a hamburger before, all would be fine because they deserved it!
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