In context to the discussion of ranged weapon-specs here, I assume that with “ranged dps” this is what you actually mean?
Whether specs that are designed with ranged weapon-use in mind, whether they need to have more weaknesses or not also depends on opposing specs and their respective designs.
If those have gotten additional strengths for how to deal with for example hunter specs and kiting(which they have…), then there’s no justification whatsoever to add more weaknesses to the hunter specs.
Im not talking about PvP… pvp gets tuned in response to pve design. Its an afterthought. It’s my favorite, but it’s just a fun use of the mostly pve tools.
One thing that Bepples and I agree on is that melee are inherently weaker than ranged dps. All things being perfectly balanced you bring the ranged dps. They can do all their dps at range… and have no disadvantage in melee.
Then your argument makes even less sense.
If you design it so that the hunter class(or all ranged classes/specs) come with mandatory weaknesses for when standing in melee range, as soon as you encounter a bossfight where your raid is basically required to stack in melee for the vast majority of the fight, ranged dps are essentially useless.
It’s a melee spec.
Survival died for me the day they made it melee.
Even if they make it’s damage S-tier i still won’t ever touch it unless they revert back to what it was before legion.
That means that encounters need to be balanced in such a way as to not favor one type of class over others. The old “bring the player not the class”. Its not just a class/spec, ranged/melee issue. And right now we already have the issue where melee is at a disadvantage for half the fight because they are the only ones who cant perform their rotation while dodging mechanics.
Good luck with that.
In most cases, this isn’t really as big of an issue as you’re making it out to be.
Doesn’t do enough ST damage
The end
I think “Survival” needs their own unique Survivability Cooldown too. I mean, the name of the spec makes no sense to me, since going into Melee seems counter-intuitive to a Hunter’s survival. Pretty much all our “Survival” cooldowns are base-line, and I just think SV should thematically have something unique to them. Or just change the name of the spec to something that makes more sense, like “Near Sighted Hunters” or “Aiming is Hard, I’ll hit it with a stick” Hunters.
Maybe they can make a 4th spec that is range and call it Survival and rename Msurv to Caveman spec
Its not just me- its not even me… its the anti MSV crowd. Its the argument for the existence of unique raid utilities on melee dps in the first place. It is the wisdom repeatedly shared with us ignorant non mythic raiders, non world firsters. The LFR guys who like MSV as to why MSV was a horrible idea.
You dont have to look far to find a post saying that melee is inherently worse than ranged. That all the hunter utility can be brought by a ranged hunter is one of the reasons MSV is unpopular, even when the numbers are good.
How is ranged having a disadvantage in melee different from melee having a disadvantage at range? Isnt that a double standard? Im not even saying what that disadvantage should be or how it should be balanced. It seems like it is currently imbalanced. It seems like melee desirability is tied to unique utilities.
Yeah, that’s not really worth comparing…
There are extremely few fights where melee has a big disadvantage in terms of needing to stay at range, away from the boss, for long periods.
The “issue” is more that, apart from some melee specs that have unique utility, there’s no major upside to bringing lots of melee to every fight. That combined with the fact that there are a LOT of melee specs, by intent of design(for w/e reason).
You’re essentially saying that they should intentionally punish us for playing a ranged spec/class, which can affect us to a fairly substantial degree in most types of content, based on how many PvE encounters are designed or how PvP gameplay tends to work, just so that melee-specs will be prioritized.
Even though there isn’t actually any intentional punishments for playing melee. Just that in general, there are no big upsides to doing so.
someone give this person a medal pls.
‘Run-out’ or raid damage mechanics that ranged DPS can simply… outrange, stopped being a thing entirely… when?
They’re not comparable except by arbitrary gimmick.
Being melee is an inherent loss to relative mobility. That’s merely a fact.
That doesn’t, however, mean that a typical melee need be worse than a typical ranged, since they are various (and typically necessary) ways of compensating for that loss of relative mobility — say, via true mobility.
If a spec were copied over otherwise identically, but its skills permitted from range, yes, it’d be only better than the melee vision. But that’s just not a thing except in the poorest of design philosophies or execution thereupon.
The problems stem from there just often being insufficient compensation — and Survival’s no exception there.
Are you serious?
Yes, obviously melee are punished if they can’t stand in melee range. But in comparison to what Gidemon suggested with putting in punishments to ranged specs for standing in melee…
In short, you spend fairly little time as melee away from a boss during an encounter. Meanwhile, there are encounters where we basically have to stack in melee for long periods(minutes) at a time.
Would you ever suggest that “hey, on this encounter we should all stack up 20 yards from the boss for the next 1-2min, because that’s the most favorable strat. Oh, melee can’t dps properly then? Meh too bad for them.”?
Would you argue that they should vastly(in several cases)re-think how encounters are designed just so that they can add in intentional punishments for ranged players that stand in melee?
Don’t try to equate the very short windows where a melee has to run out to drop a pool/debuff or avoid a stomp etc, to that of how close quarter punishments would affect ranged specs. At least not in the current game.
Also…
This is not a punishment to melee. This is a slight upside to playing ranged.
Heck for several expansions, melee barely have had to deal with mechanics. Most mechanics have been tied to ranged classes/healers. Many of which were intentionally designed to only affect ranged.
Survival is very viable. Viable for deletion jajajajajaja…
Any advantage unique to playing X is a punishment for playing Not-X, and the difference is too often one of “continuing to be fully able to deal damage” or “worthless, or nearly a net rDPS, loss for the duration of the mechanic” for it to be “slight”.
Oh, I agree that his idea is arbitrary gimmick bull, but there absolutely are mechanics that are relevant or punishing solely to melee. It’s not as if Ranged are the only ones to ever be uniquely targeted or affected, and even if we limited that to targeting procedures (in which case, there are still some melee only) that doesn’t exclude all the things inherently more punishing to those who must stay in range.
(Don’t take my being confused by your saying otherwise as agreement with his suggestion. I by no means want Ranged to be punished for being in melee range.)
Agreed. My only caveat is they need a proper burst cooldown. Grenades and Covenant are good for AoE but survival needs a proper class cooldown, specifically for single target. That’s precisely the reason fire remains so dominate: A low cooldown, massively powerful short burst window. Smooth damage it not the profile dps want and survival has a very smooth dps profile.
The pet dependancy for generation of focus are one of them, how for 3 expansions the spec had had only 50% of their talents as a reasonable choice, lack of burst damage and lack of single target damage. Almost forgot of the pretty useless mastery stats.
I’ve even created a topic to address some issues changing a lot of what the class have right now, i invite you to take a look if you will.
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/suggestion-to-survival-changes/848035
They made those abilities independent of spec. They didn’t say “Here, SV hunters, have some abilities that are useless to you.” They simply made it so you don’t have to switch specs to use certain abilities and playstyles, you just have to change gear. it’s not an invitation to stance dance or weapon swap. It’s not supposed to be a part of your rotation.
it was still stupid unless the point was to drive home how distinct the specs were in a BUNCH of classes.
There’s a difference between indirect downsides tied to your combat role-pick and direct negative effects implemented with the sole purpose of punishing specific roles.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to downplay the negative sides of playing melee in fights where you have mechanics similar to for example Sludgefist’s stomps(and yes, there are worse encounters).
But still, this is in no way equal to how what Gidemon suggested would affect ranged classes, assuming the devs don’t vastly re-think the way encounters are designed/balanced, not to mention PvP combat-design.
Take another example.
Because ranged specs tend to be better at handling most mechanics(while still being able to do some damage), this tends to result in how ranged specs are also the ones to be tasked to do so, rather than melee(bar some cases where that’s not really avoidable).
Is this a direct punishment for playing ranged? No. It’s an indirect downside to playing ranged.
Although personally, I don’t consider it to be so as, I’m a mechanics guy. I’m all about those mechanics and I know that “hey, this affects my dps” doesn’t matter as much as, if we want to beat the encounter, the mechanic needs to be handled by someone.
Yes ofc. Though usually, those tend to not last very long/be momentary functions, as opposed to static/permanent ones.
Now in SL? Not as much no. Though go back a few expansions and that was a different case. You had several encounters where ranged/healers dealt with most things while melee for the most part(not solely) tunneled the boss or the adds.