In challenging progression content (heroic and mythic) people already pay attention to players who stand in bad stuff. Do it too much, you'll get replaced. I'm not sure what the point of this change would be.
I'm not sure what the original poster's raid experience is. Perhaps he thinks raids are too easy? Is his only experience LFR? Yes my raid experience is very limited (outside LFR), but I have tried it in the past, and let me say even normal mode is challenging enough for inexperienced players that it doesn't need this mechanic he's suggesting.
10/28/2018 10:49 PMPosted by CyouskinPunishing bad play tends to fall on the healers.
Instead of increasing damage taken, it needs to significantly reduce damage done to the target enemy.
So if someone moves some avoidable damage right into me while I'm trying to dodge I should be punished :(
10/28/2018 10:32 PMPosted by Raelhornthey received a generic debuff which increased their all their damage taken by ~30%, which lasted for around 90 seconds and stacks?
Then no pug will complete any dungeon/raid in this game.
10/29/2018 01:54 AMPosted by ArisranInstead of increasing damage taken, it needs to significantly reduce damage done to the target enemy.
That still falls on the healers. (Longer fight = harder to heal.)
Honestly, it's pretty tough to only punish the single player on bad play without making some ridiculous system changes.
10/29/2018 01:59 AMPosted by PadgarreSo if someone moves some avoidable damage right into me while I'm trying to dodge I should be punished :(
This, and another factor, are reasons why this idea should not be put in place:
1) one can dodge like a master, but there are a fair amount of mechanics that are really only avoidable if the one that gets them gets them out (I.E. the bomb on a person and hurts all in a certain range). Sure those close can move away BUT with the way some fights are, that puts them in line to get smacked with another avoidable AoE
2) just think of how many would troll groups with this mechanic, I know it is hard but when coming up with ideas you really need to try and limit the obvious trolling potential if the idea was implemented.
10/28/2018 10:32 PMPosted by Raelhorn... they received a generic debuff which increased their all their damage taken by ~30%, which lasted for around 90 seconds and stacks?
Please keep in mind this applies to avoidable attacks ONLY.
The general theory is that if it's an attack to be avoided, you get this debuff to make sure you don't ignore it... because while the damage alone is quite nasty, it's quite likely to one-shot you if your stacks get high enough. Or in the case of tanks, it could mean you won't be able to survive the rest of the unavoidable damage that you take as a tank; yes, tanks would not get a pass on this mechanic.
Unavoidable damage is unavoidable damage, but damage that should be avoided? Maybe throw in some obvious visual cues, be it a mix between ground markers or some other visual cue; maybe just a short-duration ground marker after the other visual cue, if only to tell the people caught in the attack where it actually hits.
Oh, and lastly... this applies to EVERY difficulty. For ALL fights.
... after you reach the level cap, I'm not that mean.
But yes, even in LFR would be dealing with this.
---
I wonder, does this sound mercilessly cruel and unforgiving? Or does it sound like something which encourage/force players to actually do the mechanics?
In any case, what I described was the "Vulnerability" mechanics from FFXIV.
It works exactly as noted above; fail a mechanic, you get a stack of Vulnerability and your damage taken goes up. 90 seconds is a fairly long time to be taking extra damage, but one or two stacks is general survivable (though anything more than one stack gets rather hairy for a tank, especially when put up against the various "tank buster" attacks which most bosses have). If you hit three or more stacks, start dodging like you never dodged before!... most because there's a solid chance most of the mechanics could one-shot you even at full health. Fortunately, if you survive long enough and don't get hit again, the debuff can fall off completely and you don't have to worry so much anymore.
... and it's pretty much present in ALL of the level-cap content of the most recent expansion. Including several mandatory story-mode bosses, which is the lowest difficulty by default.
Just about every fight, someone will get hit by something; they'll live, but the errors really start to add up after a while. A few fights can be rather notorious for this, especially when the attack essentially covers the whole room and you have to watch where the attack will hit FIRST... so you can run there after the attack lands and be safe from the rest of it.
Perhaps this mechanic is better suited for FFXIV, which has been described as "Dance or Die" on quite a few occasions... but yes, it's something which does encourage you to play the game properly. It pretty much becomes second nature, to be honest; even when the attack is essentially harmless, you'll dodge it anyhow.
I just have to wonder how well it would go in WoW...
... probably less than cordially, to be honest.
Learn to heal.
Let's not forget that in certain circumstances a player may not want to avoid "avoidable" mechanics. For example...
Taloc casts Plasma Discharge on players causing them to spawn blood pools that do ticking damage. Depending on the difficulty level and how well the pools have been stacked up to the point you get the debuff, you may want to intentionally drop your pool right in the middle of other pools instead of dropping it on top of what could be a very limited clean area. You may also need to cross these pools in order to get back into position.
Basically you would be further limiting a group's ability to strategize and improvise in boss fights.
Taloc casts Plasma Discharge on players causing them to spawn blood pools that do ticking damage. Depending on the difficulty level and how well the pools have been stacked up to the point you get the debuff, you may want to intentionally drop your pool right in the middle of other pools instead of dropping it on top of what could be a very limited clean area. You may also need to cross these pools in order to get back into position.
Basically you would be further limiting a group's ability to strategize and improvise in boss fights.
Punish healers for bad players more than they already do? Great idea.
I see no point of this. Avoidable mechanics already do more damage than avoidable mechanics to punish a player for not avoiding them.
Damage logs show who took damage and from what. People who continuously stand in the fire need to be replaced by people who don't stand in the fire.
Damage logs show who took damage and from what. People who continuously stand in the fire need to be replaced by people who don't stand in the fire.
I'd rather they do 99% less dmg until the complete said mechanic
How about whenever someone failed a mechanic they were automatically removed from the group and dropped into a remedial tutorial to help them learn what they didn't get on their own?
Once you go beyond normal, avoidable mechanics tend to be one shots. Often times not just for you, but for multiple people or even the entire raid if you mishandle it.
On certain difficulties, mechanics and/or dps is less important because that isn't the purpose of those difficulties.
Punishments already exist for not doing mechanics properly. Here is the punishment: the boss doesn't die and nobody gets loot. Here is another one: If you repeatedly mishandle mechanics and/or die due to silly reasons, the group will simply get rid of you and find someone that will do things properly.
On certain difficulties, mechanics and/or dps is less important because that isn't the purpose of those difficulties.
Punishments already exist for not doing mechanics properly. Here is the punishment: the boss doesn't die and nobody gets loot. Here is another one: If you repeatedly mishandle mechanics and/or die due to silly reasons, the group will simply get rid of you and find someone that will do things properly.
10/28/2018 11:06 PMPosted by Raelhorn10/28/2018 10:51 PMPosted by MaizonoYou do understand that in FFXIV, the healers can continually rez people, where as in WoW they have rather long CD's. Granted FFXIV is also much more lenient in terms of practically every ability is telegraphed.
It's a bit more complicated:
- Rezzing players applies a stacking debuff, reducing health and other primary stats by 25%; stacking up to 3 times (at least). Never seen a 4th stack. Like the Vulnerability debuff, it lasts quite a while (60 or 90 seconds), but it does wear off eventually.
- Rezzing a player has hearty 8-10 second cast time. The "Swiftcast" ability can make this instant once every 2 or 3 minutes. During this time, the healer is NOT healing the rest of the group; pre-applied HoTs not withstanding.
- Then there's the grand-daddy of all battle rezzes, the Limit Break level 3 for healers. Full party brought back to full health, without the aforementioned debuff to health & stats. That being said, the limit break gauge is shared by the party and takes a while to fill up. It's extremely unlikely it will get used more than once in your typical encounter, and a healer needs to be alive to use it in the first place.
Still, the extra rezzes are one of the benefits in FFXIV; can't deny that.
WoW's rezzes tend to be instant, and the charges are limited for most fights.
Oh, and FFXIV is not more lenient. Better telegraphed, yes... but pretty much every high level fight starts looks like it came out of the Mage Tower.10/28/2018 10:51 PMPosted by MaizonoThe problem is you're wanting to make it so people take more damage in situations where damage is already rather high. Your idea is just going to end up causing more wipes in reality simply because several people will die from the debuff increasing their damage taken, and the rest of the group unable to meet the enrage timers because of that.
Applying it retroactively would have this issue, yes.
Tuning adjustments would be necessary, though we're mostly looking at the principle here.
Buddy, you don't have to explain the rez mechanics in FFXIV to me, I do Savage raiding on the Cactuar server, and I avidly play the game. My point remains, it's much easier to rez people in FFXIV/It can be done constantly vs WoW. The fact that you're pretty much wanting to make people take more damage for failing to dodge mechanics, putting more pressure on the healers and dps to make up for people that fail, it is still quite a bad concept. On another note, our group has some unique strategies on some fights where we deliberately take damage. Are you suggesting that because some of us deliberately get in the Mythrax beam to generate more orbs for our tanks to soak up, we should take a debuff because it's "Avoidable" damage.
Instead of a debuff on the player, it would rather give a bit of exp to the npc that then can level up and get stronger. To mock us our scaling.
No thanks. I like the personal feeling of growth in power where at first I have to dodge everything but then as I get stronger and more knowledgeable of the fight I can afford to get lazier and turret more.
Mind you, i do that because my raid team is cool with me doing it, healers included. They know I know the fights, that I know my limits, and that I WILL do a mechanic if its something that could get other people killed if I don't. In an environment like that I think it's perfectly acceptable to stand in stuff you know you can survive, won't tax the healers and won't kill others, and it kind of shows how well you know the fight, too, in a way. Knowing what you can and cannot safely get away with.
Why, back in ToS, I had a bit of a running joke with my guild that I'd never move for anything, even if i were, say, in that perma silence bubble in the Elune Sisters fight. I somehow nearly survived Heroic Kil'Jaedan doing this, surviving all the orbs, lasting till phase 3 whrn the rifts inevitably pulled me off the ledge.
Ahh, good times
Mind you, i do that because my raid team is cool with me doing it, healers included. They know I know the fights, that I know my limits, and that I WILL do a mechanic if its something that could get other people killed if I don't. In an environment like that I think it's perfectly acceptable to stand in stuff you know you can survive, won't tax the healers and won't kill others, and it kind of shows how well you know the fight, too, in a way. Knowing what you can and cannot safely get away with.
Why, back in ToS, I had a bit of a running joke with my guild that I'd never move for anything, even if i were, say, in that perma silence bubble in the Elune Sisters fight. I somehow nearly survived Heroic Kil'Jaedan doing this, surviving all the orbs, lasting till phase 3 whrn the rifts inevitably pulled me off the ledge.
Ahh, good times
Someone messes up, and your solution is to make the game more difficult for them? And keep doing this? The player who couldn't fight and avoid stuff now has to focus more time and attention to avoid stuff, making them less able to fight. And they'll probably miss again, and the debuff will stack, and stack. Until they die. You've created a death spiral mechanic which will render the game unplayable and punish the entire group for a single mistake.
Please go take a lesson in basic game design. And take the devs with you, because Azerite gear shows they clearly need one as well.
Please go take a lesson in basic game design. And take the devs with you, because Azerite gear shows they clearly need one as well.
10/28/2018 10:32 PMPosted by Raelhorn... they received a generic debuff which increased their all their damage taken by ~30%, which lasted for around 90 seconds and stacks?
An idea by someone who must never heal.
10/28/2018 10:32 PMPosted by Raelhorn... they received a generic debuff which increased their all their damage taken by ~30%, which lasted for around 90 seconds and stacks?
Please keep in mind this applies to avoidable attacks ONLY.
The general theory is that if it's an attack to be avoided, you get this debuff to make sure you don't ignore it... because while the damage alone is quite nasty, it's quite likely to one-shot you if your stacks get high enough. Or in the case of tanks, it could mean you won't be able to survive the rest of the unavoidable damage that you take as a tank; yes, tanks would not get a pass on this mechanic.
Unavoidable damage is unavoidable damage, but damage that should be avoided? Maybe throw in some obvious visual cues, be it a mix between ground markers or some other visual cue; maybe just a short-duration ground marker after the other visual cue, if only to tell the people caught in the attack where it actually hits.
Oh, and lastly... this applies to EVERY difficulty. For ALL fights.
... after you reach the level cap, I'm not that mean.
But yes, even in LFR would be dealing with this.
---
I wonder, does this sound mercilessly cruel and unforgiving? Or does it sound like something which encourage/force players to actually do the mechanics?
In any case, what I described was the "Vulnerability" mechanics from FFXIV.
It works exactly as noted above; fail a mechanic, you get a stack of Vulnerability and your damage taken goes up. 90 seconds is a fairly long time to be taking extra damage, but one or two stacks is general survivable (though anything more than one stack gets rather hairy for a tank, especially when put up against the various "tank buster" attacks which most bosses have). If you hit three or more stacks, start dodging like you never dodged before!... most because there's a solid chance most of the mechanics could one-shot you even at full health. Fortunately, if you survive long enough and don't get hit again, the debuff can fall off completely and you don't have to worry so much anymore.
... and it's pretty much present in ALL of the level-cap content of the most recent expansion. Including several mandatory story-mode bosses, which is the lowest difficulty by default.
Just about every fight, someone will get hit by something; they'll live, but the errors really start to add up after a while. A few fights can be rather notorious for this, especially when the attack essentially covers the whole room and you have to watch where the attack will hit FIRST... so you can run there after the attack lands and be safe from the rest of it.
Perhaps this mechanic is better suited for FFXIV, which has been described as "Dance or Die" on quite a few occasions... but yes, it's something which does encourage you to play the game properly. It pretty much becomes second nature, to be honest; even when the attack is essentially harmless, you'll dodge it anyhow.
I just have to wonder how well it would go in WoW...
... probably less than cordially, to be honest.
I think you should take a look at the general course and direction of the game over the past decade. This would completely change that course.
I don't mind it though, I rarely stand in purple swirls.
Yay! more work for healers!