What if, every time someone failed an avoidable mechanic...

Community General Discussion
61
10/28/2018 11:16 PMPosted by Ahon
I feel sorry for the tanks, There job is to take damage all the time.


Coming from a tank (in both WoW and FFXIV)... they'll be just fine. Tanks need to learn how to avoid mechanics just like anyone else, and if anything, it's more critical due to the presence of various "tank buster" boss abilities.

... few things more embarrassing than getting one-shot by a tank buster, all just because you weren't paying attention to the AoEs and had a couple of Vulnerability stacks.

10/28/2018 11:27 PMPosted by Sybianjoy
Now don't go whining saying we aren't gonna contribute to the discussion or have a counter proposal, but what you're giving is so far off the deep end, any attempt to engage is an unequivocally undeniable bloody mf waste of time.


You know, a good counter-proposal would actually be VERY much appreciated at this point. I've gotten rather tired of the same-old complaints and meaningless drivel, presenting and analyzing ideas is MUCH more interesting.

10/28/2018 11:32 PMPosted by Xauzek
Lag is a thing that exists, and aussie players would pretty much just not be able to raid ever.


This is part of where FFXIV's telegraphing of attacks is a big asset. Abilities tend to have suitably long enough cast times (not necessarily a cast bar), with the marker (or at least some other cue) up for most of it; lag is accounted for, or at least for the most part it is.

In any case, this could be accounted for.

10/29/2018 01:05 AMPosted by Jagdtiger
This would be great because then things like tank cleave fights would be screwed up with tanks not wanting to stack because of the debuff since the cleave is avoidable.


Cleave attacks would be a fairly obvious exception, as such attacks generally wouldn't be able to discern between the primary target and the those caught in the cleave itself without specific functionality built in. To keep it simple for people, either an attack should apply a stack of the debuff if you get hit by or it wouldn't apply it ever because someone is going to be hit by it.

10/29/2018 01:37 AMPosted by Kirvin
Wow it's like that's exactly how raid mechanics work right now or something. The devs have set what they believe to be appropriate consequences for being hit by them.

So your point is....?


It isn't any different, that is point.

It's just a different sort of consequence than what we see now, plain and simple; one which isn't immediately fatal like overwhelming damage, but where repeated errors WILL be fatal.

10/29/2018 01:53 AMPosted by Murdina
In challenging progression content (heroic and mythic) people already pay attention to players who stand in bad stuff. Do it too much, you'll get replaced. I'm not sure what the point of this change would be.


To tell the truth, this is more directed at the LOWER end of the difficulty scale (as noted earlier, it's present in FFXIV "story mode" content); it's a way to give players the tools to teach themselves about how to do the mechanics... whether they like it or not.

Higher difficulties tend to have much tighter tuning as it is, so this can possibly seem excessive without adjusting the content to deal with the new mechanic.

10/29/2018 02:00 AMPosted by Wariya
Then no pug will complete any dungeon/raid in this game.


You should see what PuGs regularly accomplish in FFXIV with this mechanic in place. And without any fancy tools, add-ons, and logs to decide who is a "good player" and who isn't.

10/29/2018 04:07 AMPosted by Tyriellais
Someone messes up, and your solution is to make the game more difficult for them? And keep doing this? The player who couldn't fight and avoid stuff now has to focus more time and attention to avoid stuff, making them less able to fight. And they'll probably miss again, and the debuff will stack, and stack. Until they die. You've created a death spiral mechanic which will render the game unplayable and punish the entire group for a single mistake.


It's called an "Unstable Equilibrium", where poor play is punished and good play is rewarded. While it can be rather rough while learning, it shows clear growth in player ability without any other outside measure being a factor.

It can also argue that it works best in the absence of an Enrage Timer, just so people aren't punished TOO much for focusing on survival rather than throughput.

That being said, it's REALLY good at breaking two common bad habits present in WoW:
  • DPS having tunnel vision and ignoring mechanics.
  • People overgearing content and using that to ignore mechanics.


In other words... it forces people to pay attention, plain and simple.

... and I wonder if people have figured out that I'd rather have WoW focus on these sort of mechanics (avoiding attacks and doing them properly) rather than the constant push for increased throughput?

There's a damned good reason I keep using the Mage Tower as the reference in WoW rather than raid content.

10/29/2018 04:10 AMPosted by Dùbbs
I think you should take a look at the general course and direction of the game over the past decade. This would completely change that course.


Indeed it would... and it would seem this game is primed for SOME sort of change right now.

That being said, the idea being accepted "less than cordially" as mentioned in the first post has turned out to be quite true... which means the measures to implement this sort of gameplay would have to be slow-walked into the game rather than just dumped on everyone. Ease them into it, as it were.
62
10/28/2018 10:32 PMPosted by Raelhorn
... they received a generic debuff which increased their all their damage taken by ~30%, which lasted for around 90 seconds and stacks?


Why do you hate healers?
63
Yeah if that happened healers would quit the game
64
Sounds like an affix
65
10/29/2018 06:26 AMPosted by Cyniel
Why do you hate healers?


To address this particular comment, and the many others along those same lines... no, the intent of this mechanic is NOT to make the healer's lives a painful experience.

The entire purpose is to teach players as whole to avoid mechanics which should be avoided.

Instead of players standing in the bad stuff and assuming the healers will take care of it, they'll be forced to actually avoid it. If they don't, they're taking a dirt nap.

That being said, I have no illusions about the fact this will be a HORRENDOUS experience when first implemented. The entire point is that healers can't keep up with the debuff, as in it eventually starts one-shotting those who don't avoid the mechanics; it simply doesn't matter how good your healers are when you go from full health to dead.

So we have short term pain... but, just maybe, long-term gain for the healers. Ideally, this would get the playerbase as a whole to actually start avoiding mechanics... making the healer's lives easier in general.

Even when the odd one gets through and the debuff gets applied, wouldn't it be an improvement if most groups are actually TRYING to avoid attacks?
66
10/29/2018 06:38 AMPosted by Raelhorn
10/29/2018 06:26 AMPosted by Cyniel
Why do you hate healers?


To address this particular comment, and the many others along those same lines... no, the intent of this mechanic is NOT to make the healer's lives a painful experience.

The entire purpose is to teach players as whole to avoid mechanics which should be avoided.

Instead of players standing in the bad stuff and assuming the healers will take care of it, they'll be forced to actually avoid it. If they don't, they're taking a dirt nap.

That being said, I have no illusions about the fact this will be a HORRENDOUS experience when first implemented. The entire point is that healers can't keep up with the debuff, as in it eventually starts one-shotting those who don't avoid the mechanics; it simply doesn't matter how good your healers are when you go from full health to dead.

So we have short term pain... but, just maybe, long-term gain for the healers. Ideally, this would get the playerbase as a whole to actually start avoiding mechanics... making the healer's lives easier in general.

Even when the odd one gets through and the debuff gets applied, wouldn't it be an improvement if most groups are actually TRYING to avoid attacks?

Have you tried the Cata Dungeons? Pretty sure they have one shot mechanics that are avoidable edamage. Heck all damage is avoidable since you don't have to do the activities.
67


It's called an "Unstable Equilibrium", where poor play is punished and good play is rewarded. While it can be rather rough while learning, it shows clear growth in player ability without any other outside measure being a factor.

It can also argue that it works best in the absence of an Enrage Timer, just so people aren't punished TOO much for focusing on survival rather than throughput.

That being said, it's REALLY good at breaking two common bad habits present in WoW:
  • DPS having tunnel vision and ignoring mechanics.
  • People overgearing content and using that to ignore mechanics.


In other words... it forces people to pay attention, plain and simple.

... and I wonder if people have figured out that I'd rather have WoW focus on these sort of mechanics (avoiding attacks and doing them properly) rather than the constant push for increased throughput?

There's a damned good reason I keep using the Mage Tower as the reference in WoW rather than raid content.


You still aren't quite getting it though. You can't keep focusing on FFXIV as how WoW should implement it's mechanics. They are two very distinctively different games mechanic-wise. You want people punished for taking damage that they can avoid, yet you refuse to acknowledge that there are several fights where someone has to take the damage. You went on to further say maybe it should only apply to specific cases, but my point on Mythrax remains the same. The beam is avoidable damage, but we put dps in its path to generate shards for the tanks. Technically yes the devs could follow your strategy and make it not apply the debuff, but that just makes it harder to determine what counts as avoidable or not.

Our tanks don't move during Zekvoz's circle aoe's either, are you suggesting they get punished for a strategy that works? You don't offer anything actually constructively helpful in wanting people punished for taking damage.

If you want a better example of how it's unfair, lets take a look at G'huun, and the people running the orbs. Once they dunk it, and jump down, what happens if they land in a pool of blighted ground left by someone else. You want them to get a debuff? It's not their fault certainly.
68
Alright, had to do a bit of thinking and some research to some details into context before answering this latest one.

10/29/2018 09:02 AMPosted by Maizono
You still aren't quite getting it though. You can't keep focusing on FFXIV as how WoW should implement it's mechanics. They are two very distinctively different games mechanic-wise. You want people punished for taking damage that they can avoid, yet you refuse to acknowledge that there are several fights where someone has to take the damage. You went on to further say maybe it should only apply to specific cases, but my point on Mythrax remains the same. The beam is avoidable damage, but we put dps in its path to generate shards for the tanks. Technically yes the devs could follow your strategy and make it not apply the debuff, but that just makes it harder to determine what counts as avoidable or not.


Had to look this one up to piece it together, but the Mythrax mechanics in particular REALLY throw a wrench into the proposed Vulnerability mechanic... or does it?

In some ways, the Annihilation stacks Mythrax applies can be considered a variant of the proposed Vulnerability mechanic... a stacking debuff which reduces the player's max health by 1% per stack fulfills the same role, though the shards to reduce those stacks does open up for some interesting strategies like those mentioned. To that end, I'd agree that the Vulnerability mechanic would be very counterproductive to that encounter and pretty much screw it up from here to next millennia.

... about the only idea I can think of is certain abilities applying more Annihilation stacks based on the idea that they should be avoided. Wouldn't fundamentally change the fight mechanics, but it would give varying weights to which abilities could potentially be used for the proposed "novel" strategies... or maybe force the group to take turns using such strategies instead of the handful of players who ALWAYS do these "special strategies" while the rest stick to the basics.

10/29/2018 09:02 AMPosted by Maizono
Our tanks don't move during Zekvoz's circle aoe's either, are you suggesting they get punished for a strategy that works? You don't offer anything actually constructively helpful in wanting people punished for taking damage.


This one depends on the context, Zekvoz' AoE circles would be the prime candidate for such Vulnerability-type debuff... but only if the boss doesn't move during the entire casting sequence, and possibly quickly runs to the a pre-designated spot before starting (such as the centre of the room). If the boss follows the tank while casting these abilities, they have little choice but not take the hits.

10/29/2018 09:02 AMPosted by Maizono
If you want a better example of how it's unfair, lets take a look at G'huun, and the people running the orbs. Once they dunk it, and jump down, what happens if they land in a pool of blighted ground left by someone else. You want them to get a debuff? It's not their fault certainly.


Actually looking at FFXIV, I can't think of a single example of an AoE dropped on top of another player which applies the Vulnerability debuff. It's generally reserved by attacks the player can see coming (either one of the standard markers or some specific animation, possibly both).

... that being said, said AoEs can still deal a ton of damage and potentially leave the player with a NASTY DoT (frost patches from the Mist Dragon in the The Burn dungeon come to mind).

In any case, it's fair argument that applying the Vulnerability debuff from this sort of mechanic isn't really fair and it shouldn't be implemented that way.

---

In retrospect, the way this topic presented the concept of a "Vulnerability Mechanic" as a complete catch-all for ALL avoidable attacks probably gave people the wrong idea... even if it was never intended to be a catch-all in the first place. That part seemed a bit obvious to me, but this community REALLY likes to take it for several miles if you give them half an inch.

It is a mechanic whose implementation is better suited for FFXIV, which consistently use large scale AoEs in fancy patterns, rather than WoW's scatter-shot approach to how enemy AoEs are used.

Nevertheless, I think WoW could benefit from an umbrella-mechanic which would fulfill a similar purpose for attacks which are intended to be avoided.

As noted, it's an "Unstable Equilibrium" mechanic which rewards good behaviour and punishes bad behaviour... which is REALLY good at teaching players to "don't do that".

And thinking about it, the Annihilation mechanic on the Mythrax encounter could be the PERFECT template for such a mechanic. Let's call it "Wounded", and it does the exact same thing as Annihilation. Each stack applies a debuff which reduces maximum health by 1%, though unlike Annihilation, it has a fixed (long) duration of 30-60 seconds; though it could be refreshed by more stacks.

Different abilities could apply varying amount of stacks, with more stacks being applied by abilities players shouldn't get hit by. It could be viewed as an alternative to a the usual stacks for taunt-swap mechanics as well, as a boss' auto-attack (in raids) would apply it.

... just a thought.
69
Wouldn't this punish wipes that are called for as you're intentionally getting hit at that point? It would halt progression like crazy.
70
10/28/2018 10:42 PMPosted by Aliandrin
10/28/2018 10:32 PMPosted by Raelhorn
... they received a generic debuff which increased their all their damage taken by ~30%, which lasted for around 90 seconds and stacks?

Please keep in mind this applies to avoidable attacks ONLY.


+1. Also, all damage is avoidable.


It really isnt though.
71
"tanks dont get a pass on this mechanic"

you wonder why you cant find tanks, because we dont feel like dealing with people thats why.
72
Ultimately implementing this would kill the game.

Best case scenario it drives all or most of the people it’s aimed at out of instanced content.

Worst case it drives them from the game entirely shrinking the population to a point where no new content would be released.