That the tree burns and many people die. Thus why it’s already horrible and you didn’t need to accuse every Horde shaman present of genocide. You also didn’t need to go to invoke Godwin’s Law for shock value.
The question is very simple. Did Horde shaman believe that destroying a single city would wipe out an entire culture. If yes, then Horde shaman are guilty of attempting genocide, or as you phrase it directly “trying to wipe out an entire culture.” If no, then they are only guilty of firebombing an enemy city.
an enemy country, teldrassil was an entire land, not only Darnassus.
Imagine if today someone would come and wipe out the whole state of Texas, with fire, that is the real tragedy. It wasn’t just Darnassus, it was a whole country, with many villages, forests, families, wildlife, everything. Teldrassil alone would be an act of genocide, and they’re guilty of it.
Right. So again, when you can establish intent, which is a necessary part of what you claimed, I’ll come back and we can discuss this further. But I’ve explained this to you multiple times already, so I’m not interested in trying again.
Complicit is the appropriate word yes. But even for all its negative connotations saying “complicit in an attempt to destroy an entire culture” just doesn’t have the same oomph as “tried to destroy an entire culture.”
I can state the intention that the shamans as a real executive organ would have to answer for this in the real world and would probably be executed.
They knew, they knew that their magic would send a whole land to the bottom of the sea, would take many lives and they knew that nobody there CAN survive that, who does not disappear from that place quickly.
Shamans are not stupid, so they had the intention to carry out this order and although they knew what it would bring, they executed it.
Did they? Mage portals exist, and they’d been marching towards Teldrassil for 2 weeks by this point, providing ample time for an evacuation. More importantly though, many of them did survive that so this claim is demonstrably wrong.
Exactly. So why do you assume they all jumped to the same hasty, but convenient, conclusion as you? Smart people tend to think about things and reach conclusions more in line with reality.
Perhaps you have some canon source that goes beyond easily disputed assertions that show that they know this?
You have my sympathies. But the word in dispute is “try.” Would you like to claim the definition of “try” is something you are hazy on?
Try to evacuate several countries, not cities, but countries for two weeks and only have portals open that never let more than a few people through at the same time.
The logistical challenge alone is so immense, evacuating even a large city is not possible over two weeks, but whole countries?
Shamans know, when they use elemental fire against wood, that it burns, that is not smart but logic, fire burns wood, elemental fire burns wood much faster and can hardly be extinguished except with elemental water.
No, but I repeatedly wrote the word try or attempted.
I’m sorry, arguments of logistics have no place in Warcraft. And Teldrassil is not several “countries.” I’m going to assume you mean several “counties.”
As for them only having portals. There were also boats, druids, and plenty of trees to turn into rafts for that long row over to Azuremyst.
Yes, that isn’t the part of your assertion that is under dispute. What we’re disputing is if there is no way to escape a burning Teldrassil.
Then again you have my sympathies. It can be hard to form complicated thoughts into words in a language not your own. But since you know what “try” means, I’m afraid it’s not the cause of your problems this time.
No, countries, because first all refugees are from Ashenvale to Darkshore, from there then to Teldrassil and from that point to Stormwind.
And that changes what no one could expect the Horde to burn Teldrasil to the ground, no one expected that, that’s why Anduin himself says it was his fault, because he underestimated the cold-heartedness of Sylvana.
You have a problem with the fact that I hold the shamans completely responsible in my argumentation, I already know that.
Oh, then you’re wrong. The Night Elves are a country. A sparsely populated country at that.
I’m sorry, again, your claim is that nobody can escape. This changes whether people can escape.
No, I have a problem with you claiming to know their motives, but not being able to show their motives. Then you trying to claim escape from Teldrassil was impossible, even though many many people escaped. And finally, I have a problem with you constantly arguing in bad faith.
The night elf nation is an empire, not a country. The empire consists of almost all of North Kalimdor, which in turn consists of many individual countries.
with no escape I mean that fate is sealed, the great of the night elves died in Teldrassils branches If not the fire, then the smoke. But yes, I agree with you in this respect, some escaped, but for the great of all people there it was an inevitable fate.
Bad faith? Teldrassil was an evil intent, the attack on the Alliance was in bad faith.
The shamans would not have been involved because of their personal motives, but because they carried it out, as I said, even soldiers are not protected and held accountable by such things.
Oh yeah. I’m sorry, you’re digging yourself in so deeply it’s becoming fascinating. So in your mind we’re talking about a situation like the UK, where we have multiple nations with separate constitutions, ruling bodies, but all subject to the overarching Night Elf Empire?
What do you think the separate countries that comprise the “Night Elf” empire are?
As for the rest, I’m ignoring that since it’s more of the same and fails to establish the intent that you need to prove your initial claim.
It’s hard to argue that Teldrassil was a natural tree. And if you’re going to bring up Fandral, remember that creating Teldrassil was one of his first crimes.
I do believe that Hannul Runetotem has equivalent status to Malfurion as far as the Cenarian Circle But Blizzard doesn’t really do anything with either Runetotem or the Circle for it to matter.
The Guardians of Hyjal have never been a set thing. Hyjal is and always has been Kaldorei territory. This is RPG lore, which I understand is not canon, but there is nothing else we have that talks about this. Everlook is said to be the highest point non-pilgrims are allowed to venture without night elf permission. I think we can assume this to be true in the lore until stated otherwise, because it doesn’t contradict anything.
First, it explains why Everlook, a goblin villiage deep in Kaldorei territory, is even there. Supply merchants established for pilgrims venturing to Hyjal Summit.
Second, the involvement of other races had in Hyjal’s story is either special events or times of crisis in which the World Tree needed defending, in such a case, explicit permission from the Night Elves would be given.
So, my assumption is the Guardians of Hyjal is disbanded, or perhaps on perpetual leave until needed.
Once again, we see Tholo and Anren and other Guardians of Hyjal still in Mount Hyjal during the Heart of Azeroth quest chain. The Guardians of Hyjal are not disbanded.