That’s the problem. Rushed cut content. Alot was supposed to carry forward and they have to change story to fit new hole. That’s the entire point.
I hadn’t named Delaryn, Lady Ashvane and more, so that claim is wrong.
Doing so would clog the thread. Here’s one plot hole; why wasn’t “Voice of the Naaru” Yrel Lightforged herself in that scenario? Canon answers only.
Most, but not all.
That doesn’t change the fact that Odyn gets off scot-free for what he did. At least Norse mythology acknowledges Odin can be unfair (not making that up).
- Xe’ra was a Prime Naaru, O’ros wasn’t.
- Rakeesh used a giant fel portal and a Fel Reaver, Illidan used eye/plot beams.
- Rakeesh was a villain, Illidan wasn’t.
- Rakeesh faced negative consequences, Illidan didn’t.
- Rakeesh didn’t spout cringe one-liners.
- What makes your personal position more valid than my personal position?
That’s not true and you know it. I explained how this writer put his bad qualities into his writing.
It still disproves your accusation against me.
Danuser and Afrasiabi have been disasters for WoW’s story, Danuser was just less bad. We both agree on Metzen.
On top of that. Shadowland screwed the cosmology beyond saving. Every god is a 3d printed robot. There is no true religion. Subverting expectations for the sake of subverting expectations. Essentially, he thinks season 8 of game of thrones was brilliant. He strikes me as a fedora-wearing atheist who hates religion. Not saying WoW is religious, but it feels like removing any form of theology influences in the game to replace it with 3D-printed space robots.
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I’ve never got why people harp on the whole 3d printing thing. How is it really any less valid than any other creation story? Go read some, they are pretty odd. For example, the father of the Æsir gods (Buri) was made by a cosmic cow licking salt into a person shape… so… I do not get it. Is it one of those things where you did not want to know how the proverbial sausage was made?
Even then it isnt like they are literally just robots. The Progenitors made vessels for primordial spirits that predate the cosmos, and bound them into their grand plan/design.
Well it was the afterlife, the “The undiscovered country from whose bourn no traveler returns” (Hamlet). Well we traveled there and returned but we can see why the powers that be would put a stop to it.
Lady Ashvane is pretty clearly meant to be evil and unlikable through the entire story. Delaryn is a minor character not a main character and she’s still around, albeit as an undead. So far you’ve pointed out two very obvious villains and a minor character that died and was resurrected as proof that you don’t have a problem with female characters being killed off.
I think you’re either intentionally or unintentionally missing the point. It only matters if you actually like the character. There are a number of well liked male characters that have been killed off since Legion. Varian, Vol’jin, Ursoc, Malfurion, Saurfang. I’m not attempting to use any of these as proof that the writers hate men, that would be ridiculous. As is your claim that the death of Ysera was motivated by a writers “issues with women”.
Yrel is canonically from an alternate universe which is 30 years behind our own. It’s entirely possible (and likely) that her universe has it’s own Naaru for her to be a voice for.
Scot-free for what? Making Helya ferry souls? I don’t know that norse mythology itself acknowledges that Odin can be unfair, but I think reading it you can come to that conclusion. The treatment of Loki’s children in particular can certainly come off as unfair.
True, however; Xe’ra was freshly restored, O’ros wasn’t.
Illidan was empowered by the dark titan Sargeras, consumed the skull of guldan and is empowered by the souls of countless demons. He’s probably the most OP mortal alive in the warcraft universe. Which is why Sargeras wants to use him as a vessel and Xe’ra wants to baptize him in the light.
This is debatable. Illidan walks a fine line between villainy and heroism and often finds himself on the wrong side of it. In his thirst for power to end the threat of the Legion he has committed some terrible actions that have alienated him from Tyranda and Malfurion. One of the interesting things about the “Rejection of the Gift” cut-scene is that it’s really the first time that Illidan says no to acquiring more power.
Not for a lack of trying on Turalyons part. If it makes you feel any better Illidan is now just hanging out in jail with Sargeras.
I like Illidans one liners. “I am my scars” is a great one liner.
My personal postion does not validate forceful conversion of the unwilling.
You’ve made an assumption that a writer killed off Ysera, turned Sylvanas into a villain and forgot about Yrel because of his “issues with women”.
It actually doesn’t, you’re supposed to dislike that character and want her to die. Children can watch The Little Mermaid and not be upset when Ursula dies. I assume you’re an adult and can understand that bad things can happen to good people. Some of these people can be women and some of the bad things can be death. These things can be written about without the writer being a misogynist. Further, if you cloak characters in plot armor based on gender you can not have a compelling narrative, as there are no stakes.
The story has been going downhill since Metzen left. Hopefully Metzen can come up with a vision for the future.
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My only gripe is that illidan didn’t turn down more power. He just turned down becoming lightforged. But I get your point. Pretty sure can’t be fel and lightforged gotta decide one or the other eat some demon hearts or get chained up and called daddy up to you
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I disagree. He flat out says “I’ve traded my freedom for power before”. He seems wary of falling into the same trap of chasing power. I think the Moments of Reflection quests show this very clearly.
It simply ruined the story of WC3 completely in retrospect. A fantasy game setting was simply controlled by a robot from a dimension nobody can easily access.
Your personal position encourages forceful slavery, his does not.
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No, but Proto drakes with their teeny tiny hands are SO ADORABLE! I’d pick her anytime given a chance.
Primalists aren’t really that much explored and they’re very one dimentional sadly. All this narrative “Titans are bad” would actually work if we had a chance to actually interact with them and see their reasoning, have a chance to pick their side, see what they want to achieve. But so far it’s just destruction for the sake of destruction, and we have to side with Alex because she makes sad and pouty faces most of the time.
I wouldn’t go this far. Illidan lost to Arthas after all.
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Lukewarm take: the Warcraft story is better without those discount superheroes hogging the spotlight with their petty grievances, trashy Marvel quips, sanctimonious lectures, and liberal use of the idiot ball. WoW was much more exciting as a setting when the “leaders” are in the background and barely aware of your character instead of shackling players to specific narratives just to kick the plot down the road. I dont need nor want their validation. And it is especially jarring when its obvious that the writers play faviorites.
Metzen was 100% right that the “world” of Warcraft is the main character, not some hypermasculine dolts with Sue-ish traits flexing and posturing in a meaningless cinematic.
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At the risk of this turning into walls of text, I’ll try to be concise an address your points by paragraph;
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Paragraph 1) You accused me of objecting to negative things happening to female characters by claiming I’d named pretty much every main female character. I pointed out two I didn’t name. I’ll concede Ysera, as my issue was with how she was killed off, though my other points still stand. If there was a misandrist sex offender in charge of WoW’s story during Legion, I’d be suspicious then too, but that wasn’t the case.
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Paragraph 2; The point is everyone else in Yrel’s faction was Lightforged, why wasn’t she?
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Paragraph 3; I meant Odyn forced Helya into that afterlife to ferry souls, yet no one calls him out on that except Helya. People who aren’t villains in Norse mythology call out Odin’s actions, we don’t see that treatment of Odyn in WoW.
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Paragraph 4; I’ve heard that “freshly restored” fan theory before. It is just a fan theory, not canon.
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Paragraph 5; Illidan’s isn’t mortal anymore and he’s not the most OP even in the plot armor sense (that’d be Sylvanas), and all that power didn’t stop Arthas crippling him or stop a group of mortals from killing him. Even a random Pit Lord was able to knock Illidan flat on his butt, and Illidan’s a demon-killing specialist.
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Paragraph 6; True, though his parts in Legion were still a big pro-Illidan fest.
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Paragraph 7; It doesn’t make sense that the Lightforged Draenei didn’t react at all to Illidan killing their commander/guardian angel. Turalyon backed down surprisingly easy too.
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Paragraph 8; I dislike Illidan’s one-liners. “I am my scars” in particular is pretentious and puerile (it sounds deep but is actually nonsense. It’s unhealthy to be completely defined by scars anyway). One could say your position and mine are both subjective (though the criticisms of that cinematic I’ve heard from others mostly center around those lines).
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Paragraph 9; Changing his power-set/class is not a forced conversion. If it was, you don’t seem to have anything to say about Illidan doing it to Akama.
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Paragraph 10; I said a writer had issues with women and vented them in the story by clumsily villain-batting Yrel, engaging in a tug-of-war over Sylvanas’ story with a writer who loves her, ignored the role Odyn had in Helya’s descent into villainy and made Xe’ra the punching in his edgelord power fantasy.
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Paragraph 11; You keep making a strawman by trying to infer I’m calling for female characters to be plot armored when I’m not. Stop misrepresenting my argument, you’re not fooling anyone.
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Paragraph 12; One thing we agree on. By the way, the Army of the Light was Metzen’s idea (since Burning Crusade he had an idea for an army of Draenei that Velen didn’t know about), sacrificing their leader and credibility to shill Illidan was Afrasiabi’s idea.
Changing someone’s powers/class is not forceful slavery. You’re just repeating popular headcanon. In Avatar the Last Airbender, was Aang forcefully enslaving Ozai by taking away his firebending?
There is a degree of subjectivity but to me when gods can be factory produced it makes them less godly and special. It makes the fantasy into a sci-fi.
Recently I played BG3 where I also encounter gods. The idea some are like forces of nature like Mystra where they could die and they take their element with them… but since this is building block of the world eventually they will pop into existance again.
Or they through lack of worship they could die makes the relationship between god and mortal a transactional one.
Gods like these to me are more interesting but this is subjective and I am someone with much more knowledge in D&D could bring up a book or piece of lore that is super dumb but from what I saw in BG3 where Selune, Shar and Mystra were both present in some capacity… it was interesting and unlike wow it did not make them any less godly
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Yes. He’s trading fel for power of the light. It’s not gonna stack
I’m surprised you feel comfortable saying this out loud and in public. How embarrassing for you.
Forceful slavery.
People who abuse their powers to enslave others are usually punished. Happens IRL, happens in fiction.
Illidan enslaved, murdered, etc when he was the “Lord of Outland” and was attacked and “killed” as a result.
Xe’ra tried to force Illidan into being a slave of the light, and was destroyed as a result.
Ozai used his firebending for oppression and conquest, and as a result it was taken from him.
Play stupid games, win stupid prices.
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If you’re trying to say these elements no longer exist - that’s hilarious.
Clearly, this is why Alex and the others chose to accept the Titans’ gift- they craved bigger, beefier forelegs! In fact, I’m imagining that’s the first thing that happened when they were transformed- their teeny forelegs suddenly Hulked Up, then their heads shot forward as their necks tripled in length…
I mainly agree, but feel the primary problem is the unfortunately accurate word ‘dolts’ used to describe the Faction Leader NPCs. also, in addition to hypermasculinie Sues flexing and posturing, we need more hyperfeminine Sues flexing and posturing. I mean, we did have Tyrande and Sylvanas fight, but the writing was SO bad that I just couldn’t enjoy it at all.
I wish the humanoid form of these primalist protodragons kept the tiny arms. It would be like that deadpool scene where he had the torso of a man attached to his baby legs 
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