What do we think about Ret becoming a "support healer" in 11.0.5?

He sent the wrong link;

https://www.wowhead.com/news/patch-11-0-5-hotfixes-for-oct-25th-more-class-bug-fixes-and-profession-economy-348782

It does say that templar slash now correctly does 50% of damage that templar slash does.

Wrong link but close enough, I saw it on the wowhead news links on the top.

1 Like

I have to say I really enjoy Crusading Strikes + Blessed Champion + Seal of the Crusader.

This has me convinced that useless crap like Turn Evil, Divine Spurs, and Stoicism need to be scrapped in favor of the return of Seals as a stance bar.


Seal of Light - Your melee attacks heal you or an ally within your Aura for X.


Seal of Inquisition - Your melee attacks, Crusader Strike, and Judgment strike up to 4 additional targets for 25% of normal damage.


Seal of Justice - Your melee attacks have a chance to stun non-player targets for 2 seconds. Player targets are snared by 90%, decreasing by 30% each second.


Seal of Command - Your melee attacks have a high chance to strike an additional time.


Blessed Champion - You can have up to 3 Seals active at the same time.


I would think 2 Seals could be grouped together as a talent, requiring 2 talent points to learn all 4.

Blessed Champion would be a capstone talent. If you only spent 1 point to learn 2 Seals, both would always be active. If you spent 2 points to learn all 4 Seals, you would select on your stance bar whichever Seal you wanted inactive, leaving the other 3 active.

No specific build. It was just from Seal of the Crusader, Judgment of Light and Golden Path.

SotC and JoL “cleaves” with Blessed Champion. Providing a lot of healing. Golden Path is just… kind of there.

But between my testing and the release of the patch there seems to have been a hotfix nerf to these abilities for Ret in specific. All of them are doing quite a bit less than what the tooltips suggest. Almost 40% less in some cases.

But it is still pretty decent healing in M+ and Raids. Doesn’t amount to anything in PvP though.

Sign me up!

3 Likes

Blizz once made this argument years ago, but that’s not how you use utility. You use utility when you need it to use it, not when you happen to have a free gcd. They don’t just magically line up together.

This logic is off. It’s not as if when you run TS you get to shift that point out of Expurgation and into something else; you take it anyway and it’s just less effective if you lower BoJ’s priority. In AoE situations in m+, which are most situations in m+, you simply don’t have the globals to press TS. It doesn’t hit like a mack truck because two BoJs in two gcds will deal roughly the same damage as Templar Strike > Templar Slash (a little more for me, a little less for you apparently). That’s before Crusading Strikes damage and holy power gen are factored in, before the fact that Expurgation via Blade of Vengeance has no target cap (as far as I’m aware). Sometimes having Skyfury won’t make up for that.

But first you have to prioritize TS over BoJ to get Empyrean Power, and then you have to find space to use EP in an overcrowded rotation. With Crusading Strikes, the proc occurs seamlessly and there’s arguably more space to use it. The same goes for stacking Crusade and maximizing your chance to extend it via a Radiant Glory proc: everything flows smoother and faster with Crusading Strikes.

I’m not sure how you’re getting the opposite impression.

I didn’t know JoL cleaved, but you’re right that JoL and SotC heal for a good deal less than their tooltips. I started paying attention to my healing numbers lately and I do maybe 200k hps in m+ when I can afford to take all the useful healing talents (don’t quote me on this number as I’d like to track it more thoroughly in the future).

My initial impressions are that SotC and Lightforged are quite good, followed by Lightbearer and JoL, followed by Consecrated Ground (which kind of sucks in m+), followed by A Just Reward and Holy Ritual (which are awful).

1 Like

You don’t pick up ep with cssa, simply because the chance to proc drops to 5%, which even with zealot’s fervor isn’t worth the point investment.

You definitely do take EP with CSAA in m+. Five percent may sound low, but it doesn’t feel low because the proc occurs passively.

You’d be better off taking jjj instead really, which procs with any builder just as passively, and works well with el.

Well, if you don’t want to take my word for it then check out Murlok, Wowhead, or Discord. EP is good with CSAA. Try hitting target dummies with it too, it just feels good. You don’t need it to proc every sec because you have a lot of other things to press, namely BoJ lol.

edit: I can think of a few reasons why I’d rather have EP than JJE. Just off the top of my head, EP can help fill the occasional empty gcd in a purely ST situation. But who knows, maybe JJE is decent in certain situations.

I meme build with friends when they play their alts.

I made a build where I only use FV all the time regardless.

It does surprisingly better than you would imagine. :rofl:

I pick JJE, Empyrean Legacy, Ire with Divine arbiter.

First builds that don’t use TV, and now builds that don’t use DS! Maybe try adding Divine Hammer to your build for an occasional burst of AoE. :innocent:

Nah it blows… Tried it, its unsustainable beyond like 11 seconds, its too short for a 2min CD.

You take Expurg anyway because you have no choice. Without it, you can’t maximize BoJ. This is why TS is better because you MUST utilize 2 points whereas with TS, you need only one. The fact that you MUST use 2 points to get anywhere near the damage output for a 1 point node is an absolute advantage. And for the damage it produces, I’ve gotten up to over 850k with Templar Slash alone. That type of damage for a mere single point is worth the global imho.

I’m not saying csaa is useless compared to TS, far from it; all I’m saying is that TS is a very good alternative if one chooses so for the damage it produces as a mere generator and not a finisher.

So? You make it sound as if it’s gonna take 2 minutes to fit it in. You’re getting massive damage for a 1 point talent and a free Divine Storm of enhanced strength with 1 additional point. 75% to get Free damage twice (one from Templar Strikes and the other from Templar Slash).

That’s worth fitting in the rotation.

That being said, I’m now trying out csaa because of two reason: 1) I’m playing Templar so mathematically it should be superior in order to maximize Higher Calling and 2) Seal of the Crusader seems to good to pass up. Other than tanks and healers, my self-sustain seems to be superior to the other two dps in M+.

Let me make this clear: I’m not advocating for people to choose TS over BoJ, everyone has their own play style and you bring up valid points. All I’m saying is that TS is very good and viable alternative if one chooses so for the reasons I’ve listed.

When I tested it a few weeks back (as Herald), it seemed to deal similar damage as not using it and doing the rotation like normal. But that was against 5 targets rather than 8. I think it could be made viable without major mechanical changes. Half the cooldown, take it off the GCD like Breath of Sindragosa, stuff like that.

It’s not an advantage because there’s no better place to put those talents with a TS build. In fact, the way the first gate of the Ret tree is designed, the only thing you’re allowed to drop either of them for is JoJ.

It doesn’t work out as well as you think it does for the reasons I gave, and the math backs me up on this, doesn’t it? As for PvP, you’re either kiting or getting kited so often that it’s difficult to make much use of either talent.

You can put those two point into Heart of the Crusader which greatly increases the damage output of TS if one chooses to use it. As for Judgement of Justice, it’s not a useless node depending on one’s play style.

What math? I must have missed this. Please copy and paste for me, thanks.

5% chance to proc in single target scenarios’s is pretty bad. If your getting more then a 5% proc chance, then we can assume this has to do with the same bug that is causing seal of crusader to proc multiple times in AoE encounters with one cast of Cssa.

At any case even if EP is good with cssa, it defeats the purpose of making a cssa build in the first place, minimalizing gcd’s to make use for other things like casting instant FoL’s.

You can’t get past the first gate without taking Imp BoJ / Holy Blade. The only way to skip Expurgation is to take JoJ instead (or do something insane like skip FV). In PvP you have the points to come back for JoJ later, and the snare is more useful there, but JoJ is not taken in PvE. There’s not really anything you can drop for Heart of the Crusader (which costs 2 points!!) in m+, even when going for a TS build. HotC wouldn’t be a good choice in PvP either because CS is so inconsequential there.

People who sim this stuff constantly, which is not me, but I just did it for you. I switched Crusading Strikes to TS and Imp BoJ to Holy Blade. I didn’t switch anything to HotC because I think that would actually hurt a TS build. For raid buffs I only checked Heroism and Skyfury, the first because you’ll always have that in a m+, and the second to try to weigh things towards TS:

I went from 986k ST DPS (Patchwerk setting) with Crusading Strikes to 929k with TS, a 5.5% loss in damage. In AoE (dungeon slice setting), from 1.666m ST to 1.537, a 7.5% loss. I rounded the numbers slightly but I’m telling you that TS is a big DPS loss. I can feel it in the gameplay and now I’ve tried to show you with numbers. I’m sure someone who sims more than once in a while could provide more accurate numbers, or you can try it yourself with your own criteria, but last I checked it’s common knowledge that TS is a DPS loss. I don’t peruse the paladin Discord very often but you can try asking there if you’d like.

There was a TS build that gained a little traction for a hot minute, but it involved dropping FV out of the rotation and only using DS. That way there were points to spend on something like HotC. That’s why I keep saying that TS doesn’t fit in the rotation, not unless 1) you don’t mind losing DPS, 2) you want to play some insane build that doesn’t use our ST spender and don’t mind losing DPS in most situations, or 3) the devs purposely start adding gaps to the rotation.

I’ll let you have the final word on this if you want it, and I promise to read it.

EP serves as filler in ST so that by the time you run out of buttons to press, you probably have a proc sitting there to bridge an uncomfortable gcd gap. That was just one example, though. Also you originally claimed “You don’t pick up ep with csaa” even though 45 out of the top 50 Rets in m+ are currently talented into it according to Murlok (not allowed to link here), and none of them take JJE.

That’s not why you run CSAA. There’s occasionally an empty gcd in the ST rotation. You use utility whenever you need to use it.

what the heck is going on here

I started an argument or two.

1 Like

about??? lol

  1. TS builds deal less damage than CSAA builds
  2. If TS is ever made viable it’ll probably be at the expense of CSAA
  3. CSAA builds include Empyrean Power

But let’s let Turalyonn have the last word for the love of the Light