HoW is similar to Judgment and CS is similar to BoJ, but I like HoW more than CS. Those are some cool ideas though.
I like these ideas as well, very thematic, but Divine Arbiter is actually a pretty good mechanic. In PvP you can track it in order to line it up with other burst, while in m+ I’d like to do the same for 1) priority damage, and 2) because it would be fun for TV to enter the AoE rotation. But the Ret tree’s ST vs. AoE design forces us into Searing Light (a much more boring talent btw).
I mean, that should happen regardless. Prot without AS giving HoPo feels so awful to play i don’t even want to touch it. Literally the only spec i refuse to play.
Holy doesn’t need HoW for healing per se. Rather, they would lose a ton of their damage potential if it was removed. And putting more damage into Judgment might cause some wonky tuning issues with Avenging Crusader.
Oh absolutely. I just think its implementation is boring. If it buffed TV/FV directly rather than being a seperate damage event i would have loved it, even though nothing would really have changed. But seeing some “Giga-Verdicts” every minute or so would be fun!
That said, if we want to to keep DA. We could just put the “Judge>HoW” talent where Divine Hammer is, then move DH directly underneath Shield of Vengeance and retune it to be a proper capstone talent.
Edit: Or the “Judge>HoW” talent could go underneath SoV.
For a mere generator it does massive damage. I’ve actually clocked upward of nearly 800k on Templar Slash alone and the Templar Strikes combo does around 12%-ish of my total damage. It also interacts very well with 10, count 'em, 10 ret Talents and gives 2 HoPo on demand.
As an example, with the Blessed Champion bug, I can get a free enhanced Divine Storm at 75% chance proc.
Templar Strikes combo hits like a truck on steroids with rockets attached.
But hey, I understand that it’s not everyone’s cup of tea. All depends on one’s playstyle.
How does not need to be another judgement. Nor does CS needs to be a carbon copy of BoJ. Attacks having their own mechanics is fine as it is, and them becoming copies just makes the question on why even keep the attacks anymore.
Besides, HoW needs to go back to strictly being an strong ranged execute.
But those two GCDs spent on Templar Strike and Templar Slash could have been spent on two BoJs.
BoJ (189k) + Expurgation (107k) = 296k. Multiply that by 2 = 592k
Templar Strike (151k) + Templar Slash (278k) + the DoT (139k) = 568k
That’s without including Crusading Strikes or BoJ’s other advantages. Templar Strikes has a cool mechanic even though the same mechanic is now used by Templar hero spec, and the ability icons are fancy, but does it truly deal massive damage? I don’t think so.
TS is a dagger at the throat of Crusading Strikes builds. We don’t have the GCDs for it, and so the only way it becomes viable is by slowing down the rotation so that Crusading Strikes builds have empty GCDs. Losing Seal of Order is an example of this. Bolas at Wowhead says it’s a good thing (https://www.wowhead.com/news/review-of-the-retribution-paladin-changes-in-patch-11-0-5-guide-writer-feedback-348146), but it’s really not. The AoE rotation will always be GCD-locked, but a flawlessly executed ST rotation has empty GCDs here and there. That’s why I suggested Swift Justice be combined with Light of Justice. Every little bit helps.
As for TS, remove it before it causes any major harm, and then perhaps its mechanic can be incorporated into BoJ. BoJ is Crusader Strike nowadays, a modern version of it. If you want TS to be a thing you’re basically asking to have two Crusader Strikes in the rotation. Personally I’d rather HoW be given a more prominent role, especially if the devs found a way to differentiate it from Judgment.
Yea, and I really enjoy that mechanic. I love building up massive Expurgations. I just wish we could intersperse it with Hammer of Wraths. Just spitballing here, but HoW could apply Expurgation and the Judgment debuff. It would be unique in that it’s our other attacks combined into one. I also always thought that Divine Toll should use HoW for Ret instead of Judgment. This would differentiate it from Judgment with Blessed Champion so long as that talent doesn’t include HoW, and imagine using it on a bunch of low-health targets (assuming HoW felt like a proper execute). I wish Divine Resonance / Quickened Invocation were an actual choice, and I don’t mean that in a monkey’s paw way where we get another ST / AoE node.
HoW could use an updated graphic as well. Stand a ways away from some target dummies and use Judgment, followed by HoW. One clearly looks better than the other, and it’s the one that’s available all the time…
Alright, that’s my cue for a little forum break. Great discussions!
Because when you get free gcd’s and it’s not worth using utility or healing you’re just sitting there and your dps is going down.
You’ll probably say, yes but your dps is designed to have those holes.
Nope, the dps takes an average of procs as well, if you don’t get the procs when you need them you’ll be sitting there for 1-2 gcd’s while the other ret pally was lucky and got it at a good time. You don’t suck, your rng sucks and that’s unfair.
Full gcd’s alleviates that kind of rng… and waiting for stuff to come off cd sucks in general.
And your healing/utility should cost dps, it’s a give and take situation where you assess what needs to happen.
Exactly… it also causes your judgment to matter.
When we are learning a fight in raids, i just let ppl die, i don’t care, it’s a learning situation and if they stay dead they can learn more by watching the fight and feeling the consequences of their failures.
If i know that it’s most likely a kill if i pay extra attention to the noobs around me… i’ll throw in multiple WoG’s and FoLs if needed.
It costs me dps sure, but i’m in it for the kill not the parsing for that kill.
In m+ when i’m with my friends i throw in more healing to make sure the run is successful, because i know when they’ll struggle cause i know them.
In m+ with pugs, i need to assess if the healer or others are prone to struggling/mistakes, so i pay attention to them in a different way, but sometimes i just won’t care to carry that much. Sometimes i let the healer die if we’re close to finishing the fight at 20% cause i know i can carry the fight solo-healing as ret.
TL;DR: As a ret paladin you can decide if the run will be successful or not, depending on how much dps you’re willing to give up, if you care or not.
I’m assuming your math comes from your personal character. Here’s my math from my character (although I admit I can easily be wrong on the numbers; I’m no Reed Richards)…
BoJ (214.2k) + Expurg (102.3k) = 316.5k. Multiply that by 2 = 633k
Templar Strikes (172k) + Templar Slash (317k) + Dot (158k) = 647k
And this is not assuming TS other advantages such as taking advantage of outside sources such as Skyfury.
Also, an extremely and very important point: You’re using three Talent points to get your full math benefit, whereas I’m only using one. If you take out one Talent point for Expurg and another for Improved Blade of Justice, then it’s not even a contest for damage output. This is why I say TS hits like a Mack truck on steroids with rockets strapped on.
And this bares worth repeating: Templar Strikes interacts with 10, count 'em, 10 Talents on the ret tree. That’s a MAJOR win for TS. As an example:
Combined with Blessed Champion and the Empyrean Power bug, I have a 75% chance to proc an enhanced Divine Storm with each strike for free.
No it doesn’t. Most procs are limited to a certain number in a given timeframe. Regardless of you flawlessly filling every gcd with an ability, you’re not likely to get any more procs than had you only filled 75% of your gcds with an ability.
For the few procs that may not be based on ppm, designs like Crusading Strikes can assist with maintaining that chance to proc even as you spend a gcd on a crucial Blessing or Lay on Hands.
That’s not true, it matters when you get the procs. If you get 4 procs in 15 seconds of different abilities you’re overwhelmed by HP and procs, you’re not pushing your buttons regularly so not starting their cooldowns.
If you get those procs in 30 seconds it’s much more appropriate to spread them out between your normal generator cooldowns.
That GCD you’re spending on a blessing of Lay is irrelevant on where your open gcd’s are, you’re much more likely to not have an open GCD when you need to use those.
If you don’t believe me go do an instance and see how many times you truly had nothing to push when you actually needed to use an utility spell. Then take note of the times, and tell me how useful it was to have those open gcd’s.
Of course it’s not always going to play out to suit your rotational needs. But having a bit of room to breathe in the rotation combined with having multiple charges of abilities will give you a much better shot at not losing out on offense for the effort of utilizing your utility.
It’s most likely to not suit your rotational needs, that’s the point.
You don’t see the tank needed Lay but you look at your cd’s and see that BoJ is off cd and say… sorry tank i need to BoJ this pack of adds, deal with it.
You never look at your open gcd’s when those things arise.
A bit of room to do nothing, while your fellow ret pally had luck on his rng side and got a proc at a good time.
Enjoy doing less dps because you were unlucky?
For procs like ability cd resets, having multiple charges of the ability is the best defense against RNG. With no additional charges you run into the difference of getting a reset half a second before it was going to come off cd anyways or half a second after you just used it.
For procs like Searing Light, RNG is RNG. Just because you use more abilities in a given window doesn’t mean you’re going to see more procs than your fellow Ret.
At the end of the day, if you simply prefer spamming abilities non-stop, that’s fine. To each their own. I just don’t think it makes much sense for a class that is heavily designed around assisting allies with utility and off-heals.
