My thirst thought would actually be Bloodthirst, reducing the AP coefficient on it would be a substantial hit, but ONLY to full fury builds. Second thought would be HS queing and how that strengthens dual wielding. Not sure how far it would need to go, but just what I usually hear brought up as the reasons fury is SO strong.
Now see, I view the queuing as a bug or coding oversight and could absolutely agree with it being done away with.
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Nerfing BT isn’t a substantial hit though. It’s 45% AP coef right now. The only reason it looks like a large portion of damage is fight length. Longer the fight goes the higher up white hits/heroic strike numbers get. (You can verify this by looking at SoD, nothing warrior uses has been buffed, fights are longer though, HS->White hits->Deep Wounds->BT in that order for damage dealt)
Removing HS queue just makes hit more valuable to us so now every rogue and hunter has to be contested on accuria and dft, hit pieces warriors normally skip. I think most players don’t actually want that
You wanna know the real reasons warrior is the meta dps? It’s two things, fight length, and cooldowns. 30 second or shorter fight, diamond flask is 75 str for 1 minute, Death wish is 20% damage dealt for 30 seconds, recklessness is 100% crit for 12 seconds.
Why do you think rogue is the closest behind warrior? Blade flurry+adrenaline rush. Strong cooldowns, low durations, limited by their energy regeneration. The damage is there though.
The best change they could make would be to remove death wish honestly, it’s the only thing we hold over basically every other class, but what do you give warrior in return?
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Oh DF should NOT be snapshotted, imo. But that’s just an opinion. Making warriors deal with the hit penalty also affects their rage generation when dual wielding, which further reduced ability use, and the extra misses would lower white damage.
But I agree, it wouldn’t be a huge hit. I’m also not intending there to be one. It doesn’t bother me that warrior is top as a design. I’d need to dismantle the whole thing mathematically and find the levers to pull so they’re only 50 yards ahead of everyone instead of a mile. I 100% admit I’m not the expert or that I have the correct answer. But I tell ya, when Blizz finally puts out a version of Vanilla that isn’t on a whole other PLANET design wise to the OG, but DOES have some tweaking and tuning so that “hybrid” doesn’t mean “heal or be hated” I’ll be first in line to give it a shot.
No no, when I say the hit penalty thing doesn’t matter I genuinely mean it doesn’t. Warriors literally would still pull their numbers, we did just fine on pservers without it, we’d just also contest hit pieces we’ve been skipping.
Ex: bis right now gets 6% hit, lionheart helm, gauntlets of annihilation, girdle of the mentor, chromatic boots, band of unnatural forces.
bis without hs queue: lionheart, t2.5 shoulders, cloak of concentrated hatred, plated abom ribcage, girdle of the mentor, i think it’s wsg legs or r12 legs, chromatic boots, accuria, unnatural forces, dft, 13% hit, playing human you also can squeeze iblis instead of hungering cold for 14% hit.
It would change literal nothing. The biggest changes to make would be fight length (and then address mana regeneration/costs) or remove death wish. Anything else you’re just killing warrior everywhere else because it’s too good in ideal pve conditions.
Which honestly, idk why that’s a problem when raids are like, 2 hours at worst. Oh no, warriors are the best for 2 hours a week. Mages are the best the other 166.
Just wanna point out, this is easy to say when your class is the strongest in the game.
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Nerf the brown boys, players weren’t stacking warriors in original vanilla
That’s because fury wasn’t a playable dps spec until the talent update in 1.6, BWL release.
Normalization patch was 1.8, 1.9 and 1.10 saw further buffs to fury through fixes and the AQ itemization updates.
You wanna know what else people weren’t doing in vanilla though? Leveling mages/priests by soloing ZF grave pulls. Or one-pulling Mara as a mage. Or pulling ZG to solo trash as a mage. We also weren’t killing bosses in 30 seconds.
It’s easy to say that my class is mid the entire rest of the time I play it. It’s also easy to say there’s 2 other classes (mage and rogue) that are arguably more broken due to how they interact with pvp and the game world. But nobody cares about that because “muh pve”
I’ve been playing warrior since original vanilla. I already explained what can be done to bring warrior in line with everyone else in an earlier post. But it doesn’t do anything except make mage/rogue more equal with them in the one part of the game they don’t already dominate.
If you buff underperforming dps specs (balance, ret, ele, enh, feral, etc etc etc), and you don’t handle it correctly, (which blizzard will not) then all you do is ruin the other 166 hours of gameplay available every week. Which is literally what happened on SoD. SoD pvp is trash, being a warrior in the SoD world is trash since everything needed 2x hp to accommodate for all the new broken runes that warriors got 0 of.
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I mean, it’s not just pve warriors are strong in. They are arguable the best BG class as well. Also, didn’t a warrior get 3rd place in the OTK Mak’Gora tournament? Sure warriors have a hard time leveling and against mages, but they are also the best in the game at numerous things.
Anyways, the goal of this thread wasn’t to target warriors, its to get some healthy discussion going in regards to buffing hybrid dps. Personally, I think if you give them a little bit of love in the mana department, and some better itemization a lot of the issues go away. That said, doing 1000-1500 more DPS than another dps spec is crazy, and I think both mages and warriors shouldn’t be that far ahead of everyone else.
It really is just pve. We are “good” in prem vs prem pvp in that we are good at fc killing with support. That’s kind of it. We are good at our role of doing damage to priority targets, but don’t provide anything else. Our open world gameplay (leveling/questing/farming) is awful, we don’t get a real instant attack until 36 (slam at 32), and we have no self sustain.
The OTK tourny had a pretty awful ruleset that basically ruined every single rogue matchup. You literally cannot beat a warrior as a rogue if they’re allowed to just spam a 0-cd poison removal. You can’t beat many classes as a rogue in that scenario.
Most of our pve dominance is cooldown stacking on short fights. Nobody else has strong offensive cooldowns, actually go look at what cooldown’s each dps spec has, they have nothing on blade flurry/adrenaline rush so it’s in another universe from dwish/reck.
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I feel like this is wilding underestimating just how good warriors are in group PvP. Sure, you can argue the OTK tourney, but warriors have always shined when they have someone to heals them and dispel their roots.
Perhaps some sort of DPS cooldown is required then. On turtle wow, enhance has Stormstrike moved down, and a mini -bloodlust talent is added. They add many QoL changes to the hybrid classes, and warriors still get stacked in raids. Why? Because they are still kings it just gives the hybrid dps a chance to actually get into raids.
Here’s a link to their talent calculator for reference if you’re interested in giving it a look.
http s://talents.turtle-wow.org/s haman
I’m not wildly underestimating warrior in premades. You fill a role, one singular role, which is to hit a priority target and put mortal strike on it. Rogues role is priority target damage (killing fc/healers), priority target control (ccing healers/backline/fc), defense (solo defending gm/flag room), and fc tracking. Warriors kit does not have the flexibility so many other classes have. We do 1 thing. We just do it way better when someone throws heals our way, dispels us, and cc’s targets for us to reach them because we can’t do these things ourselves.
We just have the biggest glow-up out of every class in pvp going from solo to group play.
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Lol…Yeah. You guys just apply mortal strike and do tickling amounts of damage. A geared warrior has the potential to deal the highest amounts of burst damage in the game with items like MoM and a couple crits. You guys literally put out the most consistent damage in premade BGs and most groups will take as many as they can.
So yes, warriors are not only the best DPS in raids, arguably the ONLY tank in the game, and also the best DPS in group pvp settings. So what if you suck to level and lose to mages. What, do you wanna win every 1v1 too? This is why most players can’t stand warrior mains. Classic already revolves around you, at least let other classes have some room to shine.
Just want to point out I’m not asking for warrior nerfs, only that the world wouldn’t end if hybrid DPS got some love. You’re still going to see a majority brown boys, but it would be cool to springle in some enhance, ret, ele, etc in there.
Buddy, damage is not the only thing that matters in this game. And if you think warriors have the most burst, you’re delusional. Soulfire lock, Pom Pyro mage, and for non-gimmick builds, literally ele sham.
Also, cherry pick Might of Menethil. Okay, rogue with t3+kingsfall literally presses ambush backstab and deletes most clothies.
I think warrior is fine as is, I think it’s overblown how strong warrior is because it’s literally the fault of perfect storm ideal conditions (world buffs+consumes+fights being 30 seconds or less allowing cd stacking that 2 other classes can do, surprise surprise they’re the other best dps), and it’s a solved expansion where naturally everyone plays the meta since all anybody seems to care about is pve. If you pvp, solo or group, you want at most 1 warrior in groups, in random groups you’d ideally have 0 because they need support to compete with what casters are going to do to them. And we all know how it goes with 12 warriors on one team in AB.
What do you think would happen if we replayed wrath classic with the feral buff? You think groups wouldn’t stack ferals?
And again, the main reason I’m against blizzard touching anything, isn’t because I don’t think it’s possible to balance the dps specs in a way that they could be more useful. It’s because blizzard devs are literally worthless and will instead release completely broken “fixes” that bring up low performers in pve, at the expense of LITERALLY everything else.
So ye, nah, I’d rather play with warrior king game design than let them have ANOTHER go at ruining the rest of the game for people who play 2 hours a week at max level and cry that their class isn’t the #1 on meters. If you want to be #1 so badly, be a warrior. Otherwise, just be the best at your class and compete on WCL?
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Alright dude, you’re literally arguing semantics at this point. Most premade BGs will have 2-3 warriors in their group. I picked MoM because it’s iconic. There are insane 2H weapons for each tier such as BRE that make warriors into powerhouses in PvP. If anyone is being delusional it’s you.
Just because a situation has a lot of factors doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be considered. Also, with boon gathering and maintaining world buffs is easier than ever.
How many changes did it take for us to get to wrath classic? Think about that for a second. Most people who are advocating for hybrid DPS buffs just want small things not sweeping changes.
Asking for your class to be within 300 dps instead of 1000 dps of a class isn’t wanting to be #1.
Again…
Premades use 1 warrior. At most 2 on horde with windfury. Every single class is represented in the standard premade comp.
BRE is the best warrior pvp weapon until Might of Menethil. Everything else is worse than 2 stack BRE (which is not hard to maintain even in single target).
Bringing a spec like ret up to 300 dps behind fury would likely also make them pvp gods. They already have very strong burst with reckoning. You want to make them consistent too?
I am begging you, to actually think logically about what it would take to close these gaps, and what effect it has on the other 90% of the game. Instead of just repeating your stupid quote like it’s a gotcha.
TBC mages were gods in pve and pvp and the world. Instead everyone still cries about warrior because by the end of the xpac with legendaries+multi lusts+reck on the boss you want to parse on, warriors still hold up. And then in PvP mace spec + stormherald isn’t fun to play against, but it’s not fun for the warrior either who spends the 30 minute game sitting in 30-40 seconds of cc while their druid runs in circles waiting for DR’s.
I’m with you on the risk to pvp. Classic pvp is actually pretty ok, with specs like balance, shadow, and ele being viable and useful in pvp.
I am still with OP though, that a seasonal server with some class balancing could be pretty interesting.
I think the easiest way to do it would be to do a TBC-lite. Fix the obvious mana issues for hybrid dps and then have them bring some sort of party-wide or raid-wide buff/debuff that makes them worth including in a raid. None of those changes would have any impact on pvp.
This can be done through tier itemization, as well as solving the mana issues for the hybrids. I think I remember seeing somewhere something about a very low damage crusader strike that gave mana on usage. Also, moving power budget around solve a lot of those issues. Would like to note though that reckoning isn’t reliable, very similar to windfury and is pretty deep in the prot tree. Making crusader strike the keystone in ret would eliminate that.
There is plenty of thought that goes into what I post. I think you’re the one who’s not spending the time to provide insight into how they could be changed correctly without breaking the game. I’m assuming you play warrior solely as most warrior mains do. Imagine if you spent you’re entire leveling journey which in classic is a vast majority of the game, only to get to 60 and be told you can’t play that spec if you want to raid. Imagine how you feel? Also, I hate the response just find a none try hard guild. The guilds that will take ret, ele, boomy, are few and far between. Also, not everyone wants to have to be deadweight in raids to play a spec they enjoy. Why can’t they be allowed to contribute to raids? Unless you are getting thrown gear left and right, you will never do meaningful damage, and if they gear is thrown to another class they will out perform you on equal gear levels. I’m posting this quote over and over because you clearly don’t understand what it’s like spend 100+ hours leveling a character and not be able to play it in way you would like/have been for the entirety of your leveling journey.
I never said mages were more or less OP than warriors. In fact, I think mages are literally the warriors of caster DPS.
As a hybrid player myself (Druid), please do not buff my class.