Wait frost is going 2 handed spec again is this for real if so I’ll have to dust my dk off and get her leveled up.
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Sure it’s not a literal “OMG 500K BORST,” but the idea is to oblit > oblit> SR proc > dead. Combine that with Deep Breath and people fall over.
So you admit exactly why SR sucks and why nobody plays it? Not proccing KM made it worse for Frost for sure, but even UDKs don’t run it because it’s simply not good, and they at least have a mortal strike that stacks with other mortal strikes to ensure health stays low, unlike Frost.
I’m not the one claiming it’s right either, but I’ve regularly heard Mes mention Frost being better than people claim because of this comp. If it can play well in a single comp, that’s reason enough alone for some to warrant it not receiving buffs.
It really isn’t. It’s a QoL, not a need. Fatal fixes a small design problem, not a massive one. Preventing dps loss from auto crits rarely happens during the 1 second in-between globals that you’re not pressing Oblit, and Frost Strike almost never grants KM because it’s a 15% chance to crit (yours supposedly) on top of needing an additional 1 in 5 roll to actually proc KM.
Nothing actually changes because of global cooldowns. You get 3 oblits with Fatal if you didn’t start off Pillar with one and you get 3 oblits without Fatal. You can build 2 stacks with HB during disarm, but you still only have 5 seconds to do 4 globals, so the result is still 3 oblits unless 4 pc procs, which could always have happened before Fatal. Fatal doesn’t add/increase KMs, it just tightens the window to throw out more b2b oblits.
This doesn’t make sense unless you’re regularly losing KMs during those 1 sec globals inbetween weaves, which I guarantee you aren’t as much as you think you are. Fatal doesn’t magically generate KMs out of nowhere, it just removes the few rare occurrences of lost KMs.
That’s just not even how rng works unless the crit mechanics have a sort of “grace” system like WC3.
Then do that. Not quite sure why Shattering is a massive 100% modifier in the first place when it would still be useful even at 50% with the other 50% baked in. Shattering is also almost entirely DW, which is inferior in PvP.
I’m just not even sure how those numbers are even remotely possible considering I tested 5 stacks Razorice + Pillar go + biting and gathering and those ticks were around 3500 each.
And this proves my point that adding Remorseless damage is entirely wasted. If Remorseless gets buffed to the point of doing respectable damage, the stun talent becomes undesirable because of the added 25 sec cd, but since it doesn’t, the stun is the only reason to even press it. Without DoW, it’s a waste of a rune.
So we can agree then that Frost still needs more, especially outside of Pillar. I’m not arguing with you because these are bad changes, but because the whole “we’re saved” and “Frost is good now” comments imply that these changes fixed every core issue Frost has when they only fixed a few, a few of which can be considered only minor at best.
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And if you run out of runes spamming KM, you can now mash froststrike and if youre lucky double stack the buff again while you farm for runes, and then oblit massacre again
thats the glory of stacking km
Pillar>blast>oblit>fs/hb>oblit>soulreaper>oblit>fs/hb>oblit>fs/hb>oblit>sr proc fs/hb would be how it looks and its only a wild assumption to think one would be inside SR range when they needed to be but regardless this setup can be counted with dispel so its not completely unavoidable, and even if it ends up being a very powerful setup shouldnt be changed simply because its counterable with dispels
Why it sucks currently. The changes make it work with the rotation so even if you dont get the proc its at least giving you obliterate
I play soulreaper on unholy, and i strongly disagree with this statement
“if it can play in a single comp, it shouldnt be buffed” you sound like a straight up lunatic if this is genuinely what you think is an acceptable place to be in as a spec
1 comp viability LOLOOLOLLOL dont embarrass yourself
Also thats called an appeal to authority fallacy, All mes said according to you was frost is better than people claim, and people claim its the worst spec in the game, so i agree with him but that also doesnt mean that frost still isnt the worst melee and in need of buffs
Shut up kelliste, Its not QoL it was a need, and you arent going to tell me it wasnt when im the one putting the hours in on fdk while you post from a 44 classic warlock
I literally tested it on the ptr, I already made a post earlier in this discussion telling you exactly what i was seeing while on training targets
Because of double stack you get 2 obliterates as soon as disarm ends, you froststrike into oblit into froststrike which gives you your last proc before pillar fades thats a total of 4
without 2stack KM you come out of disarm with 1 proc, obliterate into froststrike into oblit, into froststrike into oblit and pillar ends so you net 3
With double stack killing machine, because you are getting more obliterates with procs, youre rolling the dice on 4set more often which leads to increase of procs overall as well so the likely hood of you getting a 4pc proc during any point of pillar of frost is increased considerably coming out of cc effects. Because you are literally rolling the dice 2x in a row 100% and the proc can occur on any of those 2 instances which turns it into 3 or even 4 or 5 much faster than you couldve chanced by starting with a single stack
All that math totally ignores cold blooded rage or auto attack crits feeding km as well
Let me know when youre ready to accept this reality about fdk design
Which i literally actually am, you shouldnt even attempt to pretend you put more hours on the fdk than i do, i play this class day after day and i see killing machine overlaps literally all of the time, it happens extremely regularly and its only going to continue to increase in likely hood as the xpac goes on and secondary stats continue to inflate
But oh wait you seem to be incapable thinking that far ahead when talking about class design huh
And those lost killing machines turn into a pooled stack, Which means you have access to a killing machine that you wouldnt have had before, which means you can fire them off back to back, whichs means you get to roll the dice on 4 set 2 times instead of just 1 time because you didnt lose your proc, which means the likely hood of the obliterate chain continuing is overall increased, which means the generation of killing machine is increased, and because youre getting those oblits youre lowering the cd on icecap faster than you wouldve before you were allowed to 2stack killing machine, which means youre getting to the window where you can generate killing machine faster, which means you generate more killing machines inside fights overall
Do you understand now? A child could probably understand that one
Its just how random chance in real life works, we calculate % of likelyhood through math
So if i have 10% crit, between the next 10 damage instances of all my abilities that are firing off at least 1 should crit,
Hence why when you have all that swirly stuff going crazy around you and you arent critting any of it, just by sheer rng chance its increasing the likely hood that your next instance of damage will be a critical strike, and we as players are hoping that this instance of damage is one of our active abilities
So it actually is how the rng works my friend
Finally something we agree on a change in that direction is necessary
Different classes have different mitigation, DH for example has around a passive 20%+ magic reduction where as Paladin has no passive damage reduction, so your hits between the two will be different
Im also sure youre just not stacking frostwelps to 5 stack or ramping pillar/remorseless effectively
Nah, fdk damage without cc is always irrelevant anyway, and the rest of the entire kit depends on them remaining stacked up hence why the stun is critical. You just would have the ability to do meme monkey damage if you didnt want to play utility
Every class in the game could always have cases being made for its improvement, Im never 100% satisfied with class tuning or changes because its an ever evolving issue
I will always continue advocating for necessary changes in the game, But you calling these changes minor fixes at best is grossly disingenuous or ignorant
Im rolling with ignorant
These are 100% minor changes in PvE though. Even if they’re massive in PvP, that’s only one aspect of the game, and they’re definitely minor changes in all forms of PvE, doubly so when this tier is dropped.
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For obliteration, those changes are not minor, tier set or no tierset
Its a fundamental fix on an overlap causing damage loss. And those overlaps becoming increasingly more common as secondary stats inflate
And theyre gonna be even more common this xpac than ever before because we now also have talents that increase critical strike in addition to having it on regular gear
The killing machine stack change if it remains in the game for years to come, will be weakest at the start of an xpac and strongest in late xpac, Which is typically how fdk is anyway because how heavily it scales from STR and secondaries
You lose less damage kiting during mechanics, You stack bonegrinder faster and more efficiently for the damage increase, You build icecap faster from not losing random killing machines, you can build enduring strength more efficiently in some cases
Your capstone for single target execute weave isnt a hinderance anymore, and soulreaper crits can be extremely devastating. On single target it will definitely be a superior pick over abom limb depending on certain fights if the damage is needed specifically for the execute window
the biggest thing they could do for frost PvE wise at this point is redistribute some power out of modifiers into the base kit, Shattering blade being a good example, Froststrike wont be good till the 100% modifier is nerfed to bring up the baseline. Howling blast suffers a similar problem with icebreaker. Even remorseless winter has more modifiers than it should have which contributes to its poor performance when you dont actively choose all the insane increases for it.
And for BoS change it to be a damage ramp based on targets hit, and lower the cooldown and increase the RP it drains. This should really only be picked when you are dealing with 4+ targets in mass AoE, and theres no world where the tuning of BoS should be around having infinite breath. It should be short and sweat, something that comes up often enough to use maybe every other pull and doesnt last obsessively long but is quite powerful for the duration it exists
BoS should be poor ST and cleave, but strong group AoE
Obliteration should be strong ST and 2-3 man cleave, But should heavily fall off in overall AoE damage when the pack starts to exceed past just 3 targets
And between those two capstone playstyles, All of the patches for 10.7 address some of the most important design flaws the obliteration playstyle had working against it as well as the wasted talent bloat that had to be spent just to exist as a 2h player
You are literally getting several new talents for free baked in and then more free talents with the added points you get, And then they also fixed our primary damage procs overlap design flaw
Idk how long youve been playing frost dk my friend, But if its been as long as me youd know these changes are an absolute huge W compared to what frost sees on a typical patch cycle, which is complete neglect or a very pitiful small % damage buff to a super bad ability
I can generally agree with what you’re saying, except for one thing…
This is where I would put my Bonegrinder Frost% Damage Increase…
IF I HAD ONE!
…Please, Blizzard, fix Bonegrinder. Or if you can’t, at least swap it for something of equal or greater value.
Anyone who thinks soul reaper will be taken by frost in pvp over erw and abom lives on a different planet
why does the lvl 44 warlock (possibly Kelieste) come on here and argue w a multi glad long time frost dk? Arguably one of the best, or at least most well known fdk duelers in the game? This forum blows my mind sometimes.
I’ll be waiting for the Chills approved PvP build when the patch drops, should I start getting gear for frost? Currently I’m mastery/haste due to unholy, what is stat prio for frost in pvp?
I mean, all abom limb does is grip once and grant rime with some passive fluff aoe damage
Soulreaper is a very concentrated burst.
You are right, a lot of games you will still play erw and limb, but im willing to bet into hyper mobile classes that play spread apart like caster comps where you cant get nearly any value from big aoe grips youll probably just pick soulreaper to try and global someone
From what i gathered from using pre buff soulreaper, whats gonna make it so good is how the damage happens during the same global another hit happens and it often catches people off guard
Like you obliterate them from 50% to 35% and then soulreaper procs in that same global for another 70-120k and either kills them or barely doesnt kill
with 2 stack km you can just obliterate again when this happens also
Kelliste pays her monthly subscription to use the forums and be proven wrong. We all wonder why they do it
Vers>mast=haste>crit
I prefer being mastery heavy over haste heavy, But haste is an equal stat
We’re just going to have to agree to disagree on most points. You just want to create an echo chamber and if anyone disagrees with you, you start attacking them directly with BS comments like “you’re posting from a 44 lock” and “a child could understand that.” As if any of that has to do with my direct argument.
You’re simply disrespectful and want everyone to agree with you rather than wanting to have a civil discussion. Further posts is an absolute waste of time with someone like you.
What does my random character I made 3 years ago have anything to do with anything? I wouldn’t even care if Chills was the top FDK in the world, everyone has opinions and those opinions can be disagreed with. If you want to be sheep and have others tell you what to think, or tell you what’s good rather than make up your own conclusions, you go right ahead.
well you quite literally are lmao
read above, youre posting on a 44 classic lock in a retail dk discussion
People are gonna wanna know what your dk looks like so they can tell if youre just some no name noob without a single clue, or if youre kelliste on an alt, Or if youre a high rated player with experience
You attack the argument, not the person making it. Having experience does not make you right and lacking experience doesn’t invalidate an argument. You make some good points with your knowledge and experience testing the ptr, so I am willing to admit you were more correct than I was on a few accounts, mostly regarding disarms and obliteration counts during it, but the moment you become condescending and insulting, the conversation is over.
I’ve also argued with Kelliste across multiple posts. They’ve also apparently blocked me on these forums, so I’m not exactly sure how you could even have assumed I had any association with that person, unless everyone who disagrees with you obviously must be them.
Do you take medical advice from garbage men? Or legal advice from window washers?
Experience absolutely matters when it comes to these arguments. You are right that everyone can have an opinion, but experience separates the quality.
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spit the facts
Ive got 538 days played on my dk, 95% of that playtime being as frost
Thats quite a lot of time to have spent learning a spec and ive seen blizzards attempts at trying to make the spec better xpac after xpac so trust me I know pretty much everything about the spec and whats going on with it, what it needs in the current game to move forward, what it doesnt need, what makes it good and what makes it bad
I hate bringing it up because it seems like a brag but its really not any deeper than just having more knowledge about the spec
doesnt make me better than anyone as a person but it does make me better at understanding what the class i pour tens of thousands of hours into needs to improve and get better
And unlike a lot of other experienced players, Some of who are more experienced than myself, I still try to remember the average joe DK who isnt some competitive God and probably does make a couple mistakes in their rotation every now and again or their cc w/e and i make change suggestions based around that consideration also.
Dk is in such a weird place where its not really that hard, but if you play literally any aspect of it incorrectly, You suffer from extreme inefficiency that other classes never suffer from
Like an average joe rogue can still cheese people down easily because long stun windows are just that powerful
Or an average joe demonhunter can still own people because they just cleave insane numbers without needing much else
But average joe dks just seem to get straight erased out of existence because the classes design is just awkward
Ive come to the opinion that Death Knight is one of the most punishing classes to play, even the smallest mistakes on dk can be game throwing
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Why would I swap characters to argue with someone I have on ignore? It looks like I have both of them on ignore because I dont see any warlock posting.
so what are we thinking about 2h frost vs dual wield frost, for pvp? or hell, for anything, haha
im still suspicious of that oblit talent… you know the one…
A few changes I’ve thought about are making frostscythe an RP spender, retuned to replace frost strike at 3+ targets, and making GA a rune spender that procs like HB, having the option to spread/respread diseases, and hit in a wider area, or spread RI with a more frontal, straight line area.
I haven’t put much effort into the overall effect this would have on the build. Maybe some people with more insight into the spec as a whole could shine some light on the issues with my proposal.
Abom limb deals 370% attack damage on top of giving rime procs and grips.
Soul reaper deals 170%, misses constantly from any outside heals, can be dispelled, has no utility, has no rime procs. You are literally losing runes and damage everytime you try and hit a soul reaper in pvp.