the biggest flaw is breath of sindragosa
10 Likes
This is one of the few times I will actually agree with something youâve posted. SR was never a strong option, at least for PvP, because of itâs massive delay and it still hits softer than a single oblit. That delayed requirement makes it unreliable and anything can happen in 5 seconds, especially in a meta where health is constantly shifting.
These changes are mediocre at best imo. Unless Iâm not seeing the strong cases for stacking KMs, Fatal Fixation will hardly be useful, especially outside of Pillar. Maybe during Pillar combined with SR you COULD make a case for it, but Iâll have to see it in action before Iâll believe itâs suddenly more useful than Abom.
Having an extra talent will literally fix nothing as the other talent options we now have access to wonât actually fix any problems Frost has. Remorseless will still hit like garbage even with Biting Cold and Icebreaker is the only good option. So great job, you traded MotFW for Icebreaker. Wow, big change.
Realize that Frostâs problems did not change. Sustain is still garbage and Pillar only got stronger, which it didnât need to. Weâre still incredibly susceptible to disarms and anyone that focuses CC during Pillar will shutdown what little time you have to do damage, assuming they donât just wall. We still are forced to run and kite during Pillar CD because defensives didnât change and sustain didnât change.
1 Like
Theyâre cool and all, but Iâm waiting for a rework like Ret is getting. No amount of numbers will make fdk feel fun and interactive rotation wise, at least imo
remove breath of sin and put a cool, new ability there instead
4 Likes
Baby steps my Moose-horned friend.
1 Like
To be perfectly honest, Frost doesnât necessarily need a rework so much as it needs better synergy with talents and how KM procs happen. Currently, crit is necessary for sustain, but itâs an absolute waste because Pillar guarantees KM, so itâs a contradiction.
Soulreaper buff is more of a QoL addition for those that actually use it and Fatal Fixation will only be good if Tundra Stalker was added back in, but maybe in a different form. It really wouldnât take much to fix Frostâs main issue, but the problem we have is very few FDKs seem to actually know what it would take to fix and instead claim the problem is requiring a talent for MotFW smh.
Add Tundra Stalker and the spec will be good. Might need a few tweaks, but it would be in a great spot with that addition.
Overall, these are good changes that really smooth the spec out.
I just want some new toys, particularly an rp spender that actually feels good and maybe a filler cooldown to use on downtime or when you donât have a km proc. In some ways, runes and rp are a detriment compared to other resources like rage or even holy power in the sense that dks get 0 free cast cooldowns.
1 Like
One of many. Itâs a step in the right direction, and you should make a post to give the devs ideas if you really have it all figured out.
Worked wonders for warriors, druids, and now pallies so far, and this shows that they are finally listening to dks, which hasnât been a thing for 5 xpacs.
Talenting into MotFW was never a problem. What other talent do you now have to spend it with? You have basically no good options other than Icebreaker. If MotFW was a âchoose oneâ talent over another strong option and both were necessary, then Iâd understand the complaint, but itâs not.
Donât get me wrong, Iâm not against making MotFW baseline, but talenting it was never as much of a problem as it was made to be.
Thatâs just because frost is a barebones spec in need of some additional tools. Ultimately, any change for the better is a small victory, and we can keep pushing for more changes over the course of time.
(Again, I need to clarify that Ret is finally getting a rework based on community feedback. We can make it happen here too.)
Frost changes are awesome!
However, the changes to soul reaper are not good. Right now the changes arenât enough for it to be considered even in pure single target, so really nothing has changed. The short 6 second cooldown guarantees the ability cannot be balanced properly for all 3 specâs rotations.
It has never been used in pvp for multiple expanions now because trying to make it work results in a dps loss.
I would recommend making the ability only usable below 35% and guarantee the 2nd hit. Also, if the target dies with soul reaper, 10% haste buff for 6 seconds, just like in bfa. Increase the cooldown to 15 or 20 seconds and compensate the damage.
That would make it an ability every spec would want to press in single target without having to do a cost-benefit analysis of if its even worth pressing.
1 Like
Which is exactly why soul reaper needed to be changed to proc killing machine, because before hand soulreaper didnt contribute to your rotation and didnt contribute to your big damage, which means that using it and losing damage meant youd never fufill its 35% requirement
Now that it procs killing machine, I assure you it will see real play now, because it doesnt actually hit softer than an obliterate, soulreaper as an ability is scaled to hit harder than obliterate even with all the modifiers that buff obliterate, a full CDâs soul reaper crit will crit harder than a full cds obliterate
With that being said, Now imagine a pvp world where youre bursting on someone with massive obliterates, you throw soulreaper in during your burst and you still can keep obliterating without stop, since soulreaper works with your class now and contributes to the rotation it helps you keep them within the proc range of soulreaper more often and if it procs during an oblit use they might as well be considered dead
You are actually crazy if you think fatal fixation isnt good, You dont lose damage from overlap killing machines, you lose less damage during downtime because you can stack your procs before or during the downtime, And sometimes you find yourself in a situation where youre next 5-6 globals are going to be crit obliterates because youre finding yourself getting a proc or 2 from 4set along with having 2 stacks to begin with and ontop of that if any auto attack crits you get more
I was doing extensive testing on ptr with fatal fixation, it is very very very good
keyword hardly, Which means still useful. And that should be the least of your concerns anyway because i hate to be that guy but you act as if frost dk was EVER good at doing ANYTHING outside of pillar anyway, So why do you care a talent will be somewhat meh outside pillar? Your class is only a class during pillar anyway
Abom will still be a superior utility and AoE choice over SR obviously. But dont sleep on soulreaper for execute phases in PvE or for surprise burst damage in PvP
In PvP what makes SR so good is ironically the 5s countdown, If SR procs during your burst while youre in the middle of obliterate as a gcd you effectively squeeze 2gcds into 1 mega gcd which 100% can catch people off guard and kill them before they have time to react
Ive been using icebreaker this whole time, All that has effectively changed for me in my talent tree is i get 2 remorseless damage traits for free and the 3rd being much easier to obtain than before
Its still going to just be a free massive dps increase
Sustain is better by proxy of pillar KMâs being better, Just use enduring strength which you will find a lot more valuable now that killing machine can double stack, your overall chance of using back to back obliterates has gone up and therefore the value of the talent. Likewise icecap will be seeing more overall procs than before which in turn means more sustained damage via CDR on pillar
Youre just being pessimistic
Its an incredibly good thing that fatal fixation eases this exact issue youre talking about, but you were trash talking it earlier. You got disarmed? prebuild your killing machine stacks to catch back up when its over
Before disarm was -6s on a 12s ability
that left you with 6s to weave oblits, 3s of that was spent using filler abilities to proc oblit, leaving you with room for roughly 2 oblits in total post disarm
After change its more like this
12-6=6 but you prebuilt 2 oblits during the downtime so you open up after the disarm with obliterate obliterate, into filler, into obliterate, into filler, into obliterate
2 oblits post disarm turned into 4 with double stack change alone, and my little analogy right there is not even considering tier set atm, Cause in theory you could come out of a disarm with a triple or quadruple obliterate because of Fatal Fixation
In any case disarm will be less bad for fdk, but will still be bad like it is for all melee that are affected by it
This is what i agree with most out of everything you said but its a bit of a delicate thing to talk about at this point in time
The issue with buffing our survivability now is that we are getting absolutely insane offensive changes and its getting to the point where i dont think we need the sustain to function, I mean honestly these changes are so good that unless frost gets direct damage nerfs or something along those lines i fully expect to put forward so much pressure during my burst i dont expect the other players to be able to counter pressure in the ways they need to
Like if our defensives were to get stronger on frost itd have to be honor talent related and it would have to be some sort of active button press, not a passive, but you should also consider part of our surv is connected to our cc such as blind asp remorseless stun silence and chains
transfusion is a good example of an acceptable talent, because theres counterplay to it. Youd want to disarm tranfusions which gives players one more thing they can disarm us on, if they disarm transfusion they cant disarm pillar for example
Replace spellwarden with something
3 Likes
Itâd be even funnier if you managed to also get lucky with your AA Crits as well, getting 5 or straight up 6 KM Oblits in a row, almost completely ignoring the Disarm and putting out so much pressure your opponents might as well become Magni Bronzebeard.
2 Likes
Not gonna celebrate until they up our resilience as well. Frost, that is.
2 Likes
lmao I wish bro. Reality is - this dps class is the worst in the game for pvp. WW better than frost dk - arcane mage better than frost dk - brew master tank playing dps better than frost dk.
just log
1 Like
Weâll see. It could work and become one-shot potential, but thatâs not a good thing. If you havenât noticed, all the major âone shotsâ have been getting nerfed recently. Why should Blizzard exempt this from receiving the same treatment? Some high-end players consider Frost to be in an okay spot because it can play well with Devoker, which SR would make even more true. Who knows, it might push that comp into OP territory.
Add Tundra Stalker back in and then it will be good. FS during Pillar will proc KMs with CBR far more likely, making Fatal a necessity.
Overlapping KMs rarely ever happens as 10% crit makes it incredibly difficult to overlap during the 1 global you press something else. Like I said though, Fatal might have some uses by intentionally stacking KMs for back to back obliterates, but using it solely to prevent supposed dps loss from missed KMs is hardly worth it imo.
Youâre not doing damage during downtime, thatâs what matters. If youâre forced to run all game, you canât build KM stacks during downtime (if you could even build them to begin with with only 10% crit) and those stacks only last 10 seconds as well. I donât care if those last few seconds before Pillar is up CAN contribute to Pillar damage because you need damage outside of Pillar, not more during it.
This has got to be some insane luck, or that âextensive testingâ netted you that one time over 4 hours. 15% from 4 piece and 10% from auto attacks makes this very unlikely. Spamming Frost Strike with full uptime on Ice Talons will net me around 3-5 KMs during Pillarâs downtime of 48 seconds. Youâd be lucky to get 4 with Fatal and 2 KM stacks. Thatâs not to say it canât happen, but itâs very unlikely. Depending on whether 4 piece KMs can proc on themselves, you could also get 5-6 Obliterate globals before Fatal as well since it doesnât just magically create KMs out of thin air.
Because I want the class to be good outside of Pillar and want future changes to focus on doing that. What do you think all my posts have ever been about? All that these changes did was made Pillar stronger while boosting sustain by a negligible amount. Thereâs a reason why FDK and FMage are so piss poor: Insane go, no sustain. I donât care if FDK has been based solely around Pillar for the past several years, it needs to change because as the game/meta changes, things that used to work no longer do, or youâre forced to play in a very specific comp to make things work. Itâs a one-trick pony thatâs very counterable.
Remorseless hits like a noodle. Last I checked my tooltip it was 12k over 8 seconds. You could buff that damage by 100% and it would still hit like a noodle considering itâs a base 25 sec CD, up to 45. Well done, you gained MotFW baseline for Remorseless damage, which still sucks.
There will always be a delay between when you press Pillar and become disarmed, so assume about 1 second since latency and player reaction speed needs to be taken into account, so 5 secs left after disarm ends. Without Fatal, you get 3 oblits because you immediately FS after pressing Pillar and you get an FS right before Pillar ends. With Fatal and 1 prebuilt KM, you get 3 oblits. With Fatal and 2 prebuilt KMs, you get 4. The issue here is trying to prebuild 2 KMs before popping Pillar considering a stack only lasts 10 seconds. Itâs unreliable and could work, but not likely. Like Iâve said before, itâs hard to reliably stack KMs during downtime if youâre forced to run all game as well.
The other melees affected by it were always hurt by it like you said, but compared to say Warrior, Avatar lasts 20 seconds vs Pillarâs 12, while having stronger sustain + mortal strikes. UDK has multiple dots + necrotic + pets to keep damage going. Other melees still have buttons to press that actually do something when disarmed, whereas Frost has what? Howling Blast? Itâs not quite the same.
I understand perfectly the biasâ in these changes considering these are coincidentally your exact ideas. Not to say theyâre bad ideas since youâre right that Soulreaper might become useful and Fatal WOULD be a great addition if only there was a way to create more KMs during and outside of Pillar⊠maybe through adding back Tundra Stalker which, as I recall, was your idea. Theyâre just lackluster on their own without it.
The whole point of my post isnât to say that these changes werenât nice to have purely as QoL, but that they did not fix Frostâs problems.
1 Like
The changes are good but I wish frost strike would cleave somehow instead of glacial advance. Itâs such an awkward button to press and felt better as an automated tier set bonus. It feels like pressing a crappier divine storm.
2 Likes
I donât suppose someone has a list of all the changes? I saw some small damage buffs, but i didnât see anything about killing machine stacking or anything
idk why people throw the word one shot around for just high burst, Soulreaper would not be a âone shotâ you would need to obliterate 2-3 times to even bring someone into that kind of range for soulreaper to work, ontop of it they have 5s to react to the debuff being applied and dispel it
Because soulreaper is the easiest execute in the entire game to avoid, And ontop of just being able to counter it with healing, like i said above its also dispelable
Why would frost dk choose soulreaper over abom limb when playing with evoker in 3s? The whole comp is based on gripping everyone together and cleaving them to death. Also its not right to consider frost as being âokâ because it can que with devo evoker and have the devo evoker 1 shot the team after grip
Yes, But fatal is already a necessity, the only people who dont think that are pessimists or BoS users
Straight up false information, You might have 10% crit but i have a bit more as many tier pieces and bis pieces have crit on them
Ontop of that its not just about the overlap from auto attack critical strikes there are many other instances where killing machine overlaps during burst
That froststrike you used to weave obliterate during cds, well guess what you got a cold blooded rage proc and would never even know about it
Yes that auto attack crit which happens a lot more often than implied has overlapped KM and made you lose damage
You got rune starved during pillar from rng and have to double froststrike to farm runes back? Now you will be rewarded with 2 obliterates instead of losing damage unnecessarily
And that is the cherry ontop
It doesnt matter what reason you subjectively come up with in your head use the talent, it has multiple purposes it serves all at a single time, and if you asked me a long time fdk main i think you would be extremely stupid to not play this talent. You get universal value in many situations that makes it good, and being able to double stack obliterate and use them back to back is insane, ontop of it because you can 2 stack, you can squeeze more rng chance out of your 4set also, generally the amount of killing machines you use goes up as a whole because you are procing them more often then you think in overlaps
But downtime before hand meant you arent building obliterates either so that when you did reconnect you could get right back into the most important part of your burst, obliterate. So now that you can stack them 2x in disarms or if youre being kited, it allows you to reconnect with your big hits
sitting a full disarm allows you to only get 2-3 oblits off after before pillar ends, with 2x km that number goes to 3-5
It seems you have forgot Howling blast exists, is a ranged ability, and procs killing machine during obliteration. You would be spamming howling blast during disarm or kiting or mechanics etc etc to stack killing machine up for the moment you reconnect
Legit dont even know what this comment is even directed at, it feels so off topic and like youre literally talking to someone else. It seems you misunderstood what i was saying
I tested it for like half an hour, and it was very easy to see 3-4 obliterates in succession. Yes luck is involved for the 5th but not as much luck as you think
You dont understand how critical 2x km really is, You get more killing machines overall, because theyre stacked twice and because you can use them back to back means you run the chance on the 15% more often for pc
You keep mentioning the 10% crit thing, but youre not considering that #1 thats YOUR critical strike, Not mine, I sit at 15% baseline. #2 youre not considering the stacking bonegrinder critical strike you get from burst.
And #3 youre not factoring in frosts damage profile, Yes, our damage profile consists of a lot of passive dot tick damage than runs the 10% crit chance over and over while we use active abilities inbetween
If 4-5 ticks of remorseless winter and abomlimb and frostfever all dont crit the odds are the 10% crit chance you have is gonna make your froststrike howling or oblit crit
Think of everytime you tick someone with these passives even just once, say you hit a team of 3 with 1 remorseless winter tick, thats 3 10% chances to crit which likely will all fail but the likelyhood your upcoming abilities are gonna crit goes up, every crit fail you have increases your likelyhood of a crit next time
So in the big mess of all the passive damage effects FDK does during burst, Yes you do actually crit autoattacks fairly often. This becomes increasingly true as you build bonegrinder stacks
Unlikely only inside of a vacuum where these are the only 2 things going on and nothing else is affecting anything sure. Considering the damage profile of our abilities, the constant passive tick damage, Not so unlikely
Coming from someone who has not tested fdk on ptr yet, Talking to someone who has tested fdk on ptr
Indeed you could, but during the time youre building bonegrinder up massively, increasing your chance to crit significantly, which means during this time of oblit spam with frostfevers and remorseless winter abom limb ticks, you will probably see a natural killing machine happen inside of your 4pc procs, and with fatal fixation that wouldnt be an issue, itd just be an extra obliterate to consider
So do I, But that just means you want modifier nerfs. The only reason frost is so bad outside of pillar is because blizzard has to consider some of our very powerful ST increasing talents like shattering blade when they tune things like froststrike
Froststrike hits like 17k in pvp with no buffs, for 25 runic power and with 400k healthpools that is very low, but then also froststrike can crit for like 130k sometimes during full cds with shattering blade.
So if you buff the low end 17k to like 30k, suddenly high end froststrike goes from 130k to 160k
The only way to get what you want, a more effective frost outside of cds, would be to just nerf the power we get from modifiers, and increase the baseline effectiveness of the abilities we just nerfed the talents on
I see remorseless tick players for 12k-14k a tick sometimes. You have to be hot flaming garbage for remorseless winter to only do 12k damage over the entire 8s duration. that means you literally either didnt play any of the talents or used remorseless winter ontop of someone and literally didnt press anything else on your keyboard
Its also not a 25s cd, its a 20s cd up to 45 when you play stun
I think remorseless could be stronger myself, it should be what gives fdk the sustain damage it needs to stay in games both ST and AoE that way playing stun is what makes dk setup based where as playing regular remorseless winter could be our damage variant
But to say it just sucks isnt entirely true, considering remorseless is played more for the stun than the damage
Homie, i figured out where you misunderstood me earlier. Downtime DURING pillar of frost homie, So disarm and cc or mechanics
Youre not trying to prebuild 2 KM BEFORE PILLAR. Youre building 2 KM DURING pillar in the event you get disarmed or put in cc, or they start kiting you around
Youre not losing as much damage being disarmed, or stunned, or getting mechanics BECAUSE you are able to STACK KM from range with howling blast. Cause when you reconnect later during the end of your pillar, you can just use obliterate twice or even 3-4-5 times in a row depending on rng
So with that being said
None of this applies, based on what was just said above ^^
Yes frost will still be hurt from disarm, You mention arms warrior as an example not being that affected by disarm because they can keep sustain damage up, but the thing is arms is affected defensively by disarm also they cant use their die by sword while disarmed. So it hurts certain specs in certain ways more than others
For frost it really just kills us offensively more than anything, but being able to jump out of a disarm with 2 built killing machines from howling blast will be a fair way to recover on the lost time compared to the previous 1 obliterate we would get.
2 if we were lucky, But now if weâre lucky we could come out disarms seeing 3-4 obliterates
They were my exact ideas, I have been playing frost as my main since late cata and early mop. I know every single issue that plagues the spec and exactly what makes it clunky and bad compared to other specs. But i can only type so much of that at a time, and i have to go step by step to do it
So the patch notes they just put out address all the most pressing issues frost had on the forefront in my opinion. But now that those have been addressed rest assured iâll continue to make known the other parts of our kit that are outdated and need changing.
But theyre already planning on doing that. Weâre gonna see honor talent reworks and updates not long after next patch, And if you asked me after these changes go through some of the next biggest issues FDK faces is its poor unhelpful/boring honor talents
All of frosts problems, No. The big bad ones like a useless capstone, And design flaw from overlapped killing machines causing senseless uncontrolable damage loss yes
1 Like
You wonât have the runes for it. Which I think will become more of an issue now with stacking km. You get blessed with great km rng, but no rune refresh rng and it will feel bad.
But donât get me wrong, I think stacking km is a great change.