Well, we asked for this

[Tonkinmystic-sargeras]

@Yeastyholes-moon-guard

It’s more people make suggestions about Shaman coming from a shallow point of view without considering gameplay ramifications because they don’t main the class/spec. Like lot of people just say “just add 2hand in” for Enhance without thinking of what that actually means for balance, gameplay, loot acquisition, and changes needed for it to make it viable on a gameplay side and then essentially spit in your face when you try to talk about those things. Not a purity test but it is kinda aggravating when people who don’t main a class try and make all these takes about a spec you are really invested in that can have ramifications.

I get it. There’s people that don’t invest enough time in the class or are just angry and start putting out uncritical and poorly thought out arguments. All it does is create more static, more noise. And then it becomes harder to parse through what’s actually serious and what’s just somebodies stream of consciousness hot air. It’s probably why the devs don’t actually respond much.

There’s also the issue of “gatekeeping” though. I’ve done it before. Where you get agitated and start judging peoples experience and erect barriers to entry for feedback. “You haven’t even done “x”(PvP or PvE) so get to that level before you start making suggestions.” Looking at someones current achievements in the expansion doesn’t always paint the best picture of where they are coming from. Some people took a long break and are coming back and still see familiar old problems. I didn’t play Shaman as much this expansion because I didn’t really like DF overall(WHY THE HELL DIDNT AN EXPANSION ABOUT ELEMENTAL DRAGONS AND PRIMALISTS FEATURE MORE SHAMAN LORE???). Shaman is still my main and I have an …unfortunate number of hours played on the class.

@Yeastyholes-moon-guard

I think the main thing is moving it further down or just straight removing Winds of Al’Akir and making the CDR baseline for it. IT is incredibly dumb that Feral Lunge is not baseline for the class since it would allow for more movement flexibility and options. Combining buttons is nice for the actionbar but more often than not leads to reduced flexibility and agency for the player.

Thunderous Paws is actually what they should aim to do. It just simply adds additional functionality to an already existing ability. I do wish they did something to Spirit Wolf talent though because that DR is painful to AFK for 4 seconds for.

I’ll approach it from pvp, but its still applicable to pve mobility issues. In pvp mobility may be even more of an issue for the class.

All 3 specs are in need of mobility buffs. What shamans have now is just not keeping up with the current meta and the way the game has evolved mobility wise.

I mean try playing Resto shaman in arena and having a demon hunter and a WW monk on the other team. You’re pretty much dead in the water. There’s just no way to not get trained.

This is also true of enhancement, maybe even worse. You just don’t have the kit to be able to effectively stay on mobile targets(or even just being able to get to them sometimes). Feral lunge once every 30 secs does not cut it. Ghost wolf, even with thunderous paws, doesn’t cut it.

I agree about Winds of Al’Akir. I would just make the CDR baseline. I wouldn’t mind Feral lunge being baseline for the class, but I just don’t think they’ll do it. They should make it baseline for enhancement though.

And then lastly, Thunderous paws is a solid mechanic, it just doesn’t have enough juice behind it. 25% increased speed doesn’t cut it. It needs to be like a 3 second version of the druid ability ‘Tiger Dash’. Maybe not the full 200% speed part(Maybe 80-100%), but when you switch into ghost wolf and its off cooldown, there should be more ‘Zoom Zoom’. They would probably increase the Cd to 30 secs if they significantly boosted the speed, but at least it would actually help you get away from something lol. Same thing for Gust of Wind. I personally think its a cool ability, its just weak. It also needs more juice behind it.

So: 1) Feral Lunge baseline
2) Winds of Al-Akir CDR baseline
3) Juiced up Thunderous Paws
4) Juiced up Gust of Wind

I don’t see these changes as unreasonable at all. It’s just improving upon what’s already there.

[Heritagealt-dalaran]

I bet it’s going to be

Shamans, we’ve heard you loud and clear. We understand you hate all your buttons, so we’re going to remove any extra sources of riptide, healing stream totem and lava burst. While we’re at it, we’re not happy with the numbers so we’re going to reduce the healing provided by riptide, chain heal and earthliving weapon. We hope you enjoy this rework based on your feedback! Please let us know what you think in Paladin feedback thread.

[Disrespecter-lone-wolf]

Make rock biter ROCK AGAIN

[Narak-hyjal]

I think the main issue when people propose a change on the forums is they just don’t take the time to think it through before posting. They dont consider all game modes, and don’t decipher the reason for the proposed changes (often the reason people request changes is simply that something isn’t fun for them )

[Spirits-hellscream]

@Tonkinmystic-sargeras

There’s people that don’t invest enough time in the class or are just angry and start putting out uncritical and poorly thought out arguments

Shaman forum is full of them.

@Tonkinmystic-sargeras

There’s also the issue of “gatekeeping” though. I’ve done it before. Where you get agitated and start judging peoples experience and erect barriers to entry for feedback. “You haven’t even done “x”(PvP or PvE) so get to that level before you start making suggestions.” Looking at someones current achievements in the expansion doesn’t always paint the best picture of where they are coming from.

Look, I love Unholy DK. Played it for a long time. I’d tell you right now I’d rather Blizzard listen to Bicepspump in PvE or Partywaffles in PvP over me. Only a fool doesn’t listen to a professional and btw, I do care how much someone plays a class because I have seen nothing but people want to fundamentally change a spec so they can play it as an alt for 6 weeks. Hard pass. Show credentials or beat it (not you personally, just in general).

I want Blizzard to listen to competent Shamans that care about the class and know what is good for it. That is all. And for the record, I don’t consider myself to be that person either.

[Bedroombuddy-area-52]

Just thought of a totem idea.

Normally we think of totems as something stationary we place on the ground. How about giving them “magic properties” and allow them to float around our character so they follow us around? We already have the talent to move them, but that is cumbersome to use in pvp. Just make them float around us and move with us.

[Tonkinmystic-sargeras]

@Spirits-hellscream

Look, I love Unholy DK. Played it for a long time. I’d tell you right now I’d rather Blizzard listen to Bicepspump in PvE or Partywaffles in PvP over me. Only a fool doesn’t listen to a professional and btw, I do care how much someone plays a class because I have seen nothing but people want to fundamentally change a spec so they can play it as an alt for 6 weeks. Hard pass. Show credentials or beat it (not you personally, just in general).

I want Blizzard to listen to competent Shamans that care about the class and know what is good for it. That is all. And for the record, I don’t consider myself to be that person either.

Yeah, I get this. You want people with the experience and ALSO the positive intentions behind that well of experience. Some people are coming at it from a place of resentment or as you said, play it for 6 weeks as an alt, which is just selfish and inconsiderate. So the experience matters and the intentions matter.

I’m talking more about people that try and shut someone down out of pettiness and a sense of entitlement or “elitism”. More of what is known as an “appeal to authority” fallacy.

You’ve probably seen someone try and shut somebody else down and tell them “Get good first before you comment. High level raiding/mythic + or arena over 2k is different.” Meanwhile, you look at the person they’re attacking…and they’re like 2400 in 3’s in arena and 2.5k in mythic +(maybe not the best in the game, but good enough to know the spec). There is people that don’t like when you disagree with them, but they can’t come up with a good counter as to why you’re wrong, and so the only thing they have left is to drag you down by questioning your ability.

[Spirits-hellscream]

@Tonkinmystic-sargeras

and they’re like 2400 in 3’s in arena

These are good players normally btw, especially in real arena and not that RSS abomination.

[Bedroombuddy-area-52]

The problem is a lot of those people have that “expert experience” in one form of content that doesn’t mesh well with other forms. For instance, just because you are a pro at arena doesn’t mean you’ll also be the same pro at Blitz Brawl or whatever else. They are two completely different forms of pvp. One has a small team in a confined area that will generally have your back and the other has many fights where you will be solo or 1 v2 etc… you won’t have mates helping you out.

That’s just one example.

So just because you are good at one form of pvp doesn’t mean you will be as good in other forms.

[Tonkinmystic-sargeras]

@Spirits-hellscream

These are good players normally btw, especially in real arena and not that RSS abomination.

Yeah I’m saying people who are 2400 in regular 3’s are told to shut up by angry gatekeepers lol.

[Spirits-hellscream]

Oh geez, I read that wrong sorry. Agree with you there.

[Yeastyholes-moon-guard]

@Bedroombuddy-area-52

The problem is a lot of those people have that “expert experience” in one form of content that doesn’t mesh well with other forms.

Our earlier interaction had this issue with me coming from a place from High Level Mythic play and you coming from an angle of PvP.

@Tonkinmystic-sargeras

There is people that don’t like when you disagree with them, but they can’t come up with a good counter as to why you’re wrong, and so the only thing they have left is to drag you down by questioning your ability.

The other good one that has been happening where any attempt to explain something is responded with “STOP BALANCING THE GAME AROUND THE 1%” or “NO FUN ALLOWED”.

Will say the conversation thats been happening has some immaculate vibes fellow bluemen.

[Tonkinmystic-sargeras]

@Yeastyholes-moon-guard

Will say the conversation thats been happening has some immaculate vibes fellow bluemen.

I gotta give you props homie. Most enhancement(or any spec really) don’t wanna share stuff with the other specs, but the fact you want to give feral lunge to your fellow ele and resto brothers is some good looks. I appreciate that. Which is funny cuz originally I said you were a “F#$& you, I got mine” type lol.

[Yeastyholes-moon-guard]

@Tonkinmystic-sargeras

Most enhancement(or any spec really) don’t wanna share stuff with the other specs, but the fact you want to give feral lunge to your fellow ele and resto brothers is some good looks.

It’s an all boats rise with the water type thing. I do focus a lot of my feedback on improving enhance first out of personal reasons given I’m playing with a high end guild and I am locked in for enhance for better for worse but there’s a lot of ways to help Enhance that also benefit Resto and Ele. It’s why I’ve been advocating for Pwave to apply Flameshock on your target and to 5 other nearby ones specifically to help out Ele instead of just focusing on increasing Lava Lash’s spread from 4 to 5 (Blizzard pls do both). Funnily enough, I end up mostly butting heads with other Enhance players rather than Ele/Resto players.

On the Feral Lunge, I was thinking earlier today it would be good to also use it on allies. I remember doing Mythic Sark and our Ele shaman would complain being in a pickle between either using Spirit Walk to more accurately move around while avoiding stuff but losing a lot of casting uptime or to use gust of wind to move quickly but risk getting murked since the fight has a lot of precise positional requirements and a bunch of crap on the ground that can easily kill you/mess things up. I imagine for PVP it would then have the use it at an escape if you’re getting trained on, maybe make it so you’re CC immune during the lunge but not a CC break to balance that.

@Tonkinmystic-sargeras

And then lastly, Thunderous paws is a solid mechanic, it just doesn’t have enough juice behind it. 25% increased speed doesn’t cut it. It needs to be like a 3 second version of the druid ability ‘Tiger Dash’. Maybe not the full 200% speed part(Maybe 80-100%), but when you switch into ghost wolf and its off cooldown, there should be more ‘Zoom Zoom’. They would probably increase the Cd to 30 secs if they significantly boosted the speed, but at least it would actually help you get away from something lol.

I think it would still be fine with the 20-second CD even if they buffed the speed given it’s a root break rather than a root immune. Either in PvP or PvE its value is balanced against not being able to willy-nilly shift into Ghost Wolf especially if you are planning to save the root break for something. They also need to add in something like buff to track when it’s off CD, maybe like a buff that like “Thunderpaws will trigger upon entering Ghost Wolf”.

The other thing is that they need to shift how Spirit Wolf works because pushing high keys and having to AFK for 4 seconds for the 20% dr is God Awful. The suggestion made is that you get the 20% DR upfront with it decaying by 5% every second while also getting a stack of 5% movement speed per second. However, I think it should be starting at 35% DR decaying by 7% over 5 seconds/7% movement speed per second up to 35%. The DR portion can have like a 20-30CD while the movement speed component always happens which should be fine if they make it 2 separate buffs.

@Bedroombuddy-area-52

Normally we think of totems as something stationary we place on the ground. How about giving them “magic properties” and allow them to float around our character so they follow us around? We already have the talent to move them, but that is cumbersome to use in pvp. Just make them float around us and move with us.

Honestly, I’d be for this for some totems. For PvE Enhance, unless you’re doing advanced tech with Windrush Totem or it’s a high movement encounter Mythic Tindral or Mythic Fyrakk you can pretty much get away with macro’ing totemic projection into your melee abilities and not even have Totemic Projection on your bars. Earthen Wall, Windrush, and Capacitor I get being a ground effect but the fact that it’s targetable and can be killed is such a wild concept that even as person that does not PvP on my Shaman think needs to be addressed. But I also think totems like Windrush, Earthwall, and Stoneskin could easily have 2 charges and not be overpowered provided their effects don’t stack.

[Åmalemage-kul-tiras]

“To be more in line with Thrall shamans no longer use all elements. Each spec now specializes in one or two elements”

[Tonkinmystic-sargeras]

@Yeastyholes-moon-guard

It’s an all boats rise with the water type thing.

For sure. Solidarity.

@Yeastyholes-moon-guard

I imagine for PVP it would then have the use it at an escape if you’re getting trained on, maybe make it so you’re CC immune during the lunge but not a CC break to balance that.

It could be used as an escape(I really wish they also made it act like an intervene or like druids Wild charge(fly to allies position) instead of just enemies though. But I was thinking it would be a lifesaver for something like Spirit Link Totem. Sometimes a mobile class like a dipstick hunter is going down from melee, but they are running away from me instead of towards me(most enraging thing in the game as a healer). So I wish they could make it so you could feral lunge your ally, but even if I was able to jump to an enemy melee, knock them back with thunderstorm and then drop spirit link totem to stabilize the dips@#$ hunter. Spirit link kinda sucks like that. You have to get right on top of them or have the other dps with higher hp can right on top of them. Sometimes they’re both going down. So feral lunge would help a lot here.

Resto shamans have issues with trying to heal quick ranged classes like hunter and mage. With our mobility, its hard when they start moving out of range while getting trained by melee(which they nearly always do). You just can’t get into the fight like other healing specs. Even holy Paladin has Divine Steed + Blessing of Freedom to quickly move towards an area. And it’s like I said, Gust of wind just isn’t reliable here. I wish it was. There’s no juice to it and you can be easily intercepted when you cast it.

@Yeastyholes-moon-guard

I think it would still be fine with the 20-second CD even if they buffed the speed given it’s a root break rather than a root immune.

Right now it’s not even a root break. It only breaks snares. I think only spirit walk removes roots. That’s why I’m saying Thunderous Paws needs to be improved upon, breaking snares with a gimpy 25% increase to speed doesn’t do much in the current meta. It’s a cool mechanic, they way it’s built into ghost wolf, it just needs more, you know?

@Yeastyholes-moon-guard

The other thing is that they need to shift how Spirit Wolf works because pushing high keys and having to AFK for 4 seconds for the 20% dr is God Awful.

It’s another example of a cool mechanic built into Ghost Wolf. I like the concept of Spirit Wolf, but like you said, it’s not executed well. 4 secs for the 20% damage reduction feels like a lifetime when you’re talking heavy burst damage. It also needs a rework.

[Yeastyholes-moon-guard]

@Tonkinmystic-sargeras

It’s another example of a cool mechanic built into Ghost Wolf. I like the concept of Spirit Wolf, but like you said, it’s not executed well. 4 secs for the 20% damage reduction feels like a lifetime when you’re talking heavy burst damage. It also needs a rework.

Absolute hell on earth in keys. I “pushed” harder last season and the demoralized feeling of sitting there AFK for 4 seconds for the measly 20% DR killed me.

@Tonkinmystic-sargeras

Right now it’s not even a root break. It only breaks snares. I think only spirit walk removes roots. That’s why I’m saying Thunderous Paws needs to be improved upon, breaking snares with a gimpy 25% increase to speed doesn’t do much in the current meta. It’s a cool mechanic, they way it’s built into ghost wolf, it just needs more, you know?

OH right forget it was snare break. I think it might be one of those things where PvP and PvE design may butt heads so I can’t imagine Blizzard turning it into a full on root break/immune; it would be monsterously good in both PvP and PvE and I feel like that falls in Blizzard’s no fun allowed box they love chucking things. Regardless I would still want it changed so we are ZOOMING when we do use Thunderous Paws. Especially if they retool Spirit Wolf as I mentioned then it be a really good choice node: you’re either choosing between a root break and really strong on demand movement or an on demand DR that you can use if skilled enough. I know in most cases I would play Spirit Wolf for prog and then swap to Thunderous for farm assuming there isn’t a fight needing a lot of snare/root breaks.

[Aesterope-dalaran]

To be fair, Mage and Ret are the easiest ranged and melee to balance around, so they’ve always been the baseline classes

[Tonkinmystic-sargeras]

@Aesterope-dalaran

To be fair, Mage and Ret are the easiest ranged and melee to balance around, so they’ve always been the baseline classes

I don’t even disagree, but why is this? What makes them easy to balance around? I can’t really put my finger on it.

[Syegfryed-tol-barad (Syegfryed)]

What i fear is that people are putting too much hope into the said update. I read the blue post as " we are getting a package of updates", but i see articles saying we will get “major updates”, when it was not said it was going to be major…