I’m not taking about their intentions, I’m talking about how they interfere with history.
The idea that all of the Infinite’s actions being good doesn’t feel consistent with Old Hillsbrad, at least. I’m not sure how killing Thrall and keeping new generations of orcs enslaved in internment camps is meant to be a good short term goal.
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Keeps the New Horde from forming and prevents the future wars I guess.
That’s not a short term goal, though, and it would end up with both the new horde and Jaina’s alliance being missing from the Mount Hyjal invasion.
Considering the rampage he and Doomhammer caused as they got the Orcs out, that could also be a reason. The Horde forming is what I thought off thr tip of my head.
The idea of the Infinite’s actions being truly good has never actually been a thing. If any of the past events such as Thrall’s liberation never happened which lead to the New Horde being formed, the world would have ended.
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And if Alexstrasza does remain a prisoner for the exact amount she was, Rhonin and co wouldnt have saved her, Rhonin probably wouldnt end up redeemed/leading Dalaran, Vereesa might not have ever married him, etc.
Alot of things would have changed that would ultimately lead to our timeline being messed up beyond recognition.
If we never helped Thrall, Taretha would not have ended up A SEX SLAVE/WENCH by Blackmoore and ultimately beheaded by him. Where are people’s moral outrage over that?
And yes, the Infinite have always been trying make it seem like their actions will ultimately make Azeroth better. Particularly for the Alliance(suffice to say Thrall not creating the Horde would also ultimately mean Cenarius woud not have died/the Alliance might not have fallen to the Scourge because it would have been 1 less enemy to weaken it)
I’m not sure what your point is here. I was replying to Machet’s guess that all of the infinite’s actions were based on short term good things happening, to which I replied with Old Hillsbrad because I didn’t think continued enslavement was a good short term goal.
At least to the Alliance it would have been. Most of the original Infinite dragon dungeons implicitly make it seem Azeroth would be better off if X did not happen.
That’s why I think (or at least hope) that’s not actually what the story is trying to go for, because it’d be pretty gross for the game to suggest that keeping orcs enslaved is good.
It doesnt say its “good” so much that is the lesser evil then our timeline falling apart.
In the same vein that we need the slaughter of Stratholme to happen. We cant stop/lessen Alexdraxza’s imprisonment.
If we never helped Thrall, Taretha would not have ended up A SEX SLAVE/WENCH by Blackmoore and ultimately beheaded by him. Where are people’s moral outrage over that?
Taretha was already Aedelas’s mistress, us helping Thrall means nothing in that regard.
And yes, the Infinite have always been trying make it seem like their actions will ultimately make Azeroth better. Particularly for the Alliance(suffice to say Thrall not creating the Horde would also ultimately mean Cenarius woud not have died/the Alliance might not have fallen to the Scourge because it would have been 1 less enemy to weaken it)
The Infinite Dragonflight attempting to spin it like this doesn’t mean that it objectively is. Also, “Particularly for the Alliance” no, it would have ended with the world ending. That is factually and objectively what would occur, what you have posted is to put it bluntly: headcanon. The true goal of the Infinite Dragonflight has always without exception been to destroy the one true timeline and bring about the Hour of Twilight. They are not good guys.
Custodian of Time says: The timeways are currently ranked in order from least catastrophic to most catastrophic. Note that they are all classified as catastrophic, meaning that any single one of these timeways collapsing would mean that your world would end. We only classify them in such a way so that the heroes and adventurers that are sent here know which timeway best suits their abilities.
Custodian of Time says: Follow me, please.
The thing is, the questgivers framing it as “we have to fix this event or other things will/won’t happen afterward” is misleading and only serves to pointlessly muddy the waters because we’re not actually meant to be trying to prevent a worse or better future happening. We’re supposed to be making sure the future (and our present) happens in order to prevent the catastrophic destabilization of the timeline that permanently disrupting past events will cause.
Like with Medivh and the Dark Portal dungeon. It was supposed to be making sure the Infinites didn’t unravel the stability of Time itself by wrecking the continuity of the past; the threat was never actually that we’d suddenly all find ourselves standing around in a new stable future where the Horde never invaded and Azeroth fell to the Burning Legion via infighting between the human kingdoms instead. The threat was about there being no stable future at all as a result of the damage to the main timeline falsifying the events of the past.
It honestly just creates confusion whenever the questgivers imply that the reason for stopping the Infinites is just to prevent a Back to the Future II “Biff Timeline” scenario, when the actual goal is supposed to be stopping these divergences of events - irrespective of what those divergences specifically are - in order to prevent an overall temporal collapse of the entire timeline.
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A slight error on my part. Having said that, us keeping the timeline as it means Taretha would ultimately die a gruesome death. And who knows, if Thrall had die she might have tried to leave Blackmoore/taken her own path.
Did you not notice I used the word “seem”. As in I know. My point is these changes in events/(including presumably having the Dragon Queen freed sooner) outwardly looks to be a positive thing when in fact it will likely be negative.
I would like to think BOTH statements are true. That yes the main goal is to keep time the way it should have always been but also to show us that what we think might be a better outcome if we decided to mess with time is actually a recipe for disaster.
Her death was necessary to ensure that Thrall freed the Orcs, slew Blackmoore and destroyed Durnholde.
You start tinkering with the past, changing events to make things ‘better’ you might ultimately end up making things worse. That’s why the Bronze Dragonflight are determined to ensure that the past remains unaltered, even if it means making extremely questionable decisions.
Take for example what happened to Alexstrasza. This is causing a huge uproar on Twitteroth right now. But think about the events that happened surrounding Alexstrasza being freed. Who was responsible for that? Rhonin. He was roped into saving Alexstrasza by one of her consorts, Krasus, it was him that wrestled the Demon Soul free of Nekros, and Alexstrasza then killed Nekros in retaliation for all that he had done. It was also Rhonin that destroyed the Demon Soul, which gave the aspects back the power they needed to fight Deathwing outside of Grim Batol and force him away.
Rhonin, thanks to that event that Krasus roped him into, also met Vereesa during that ordeal.
He’d then go on to lead the Kirin Tor, prevent Varian and Garrosh from coming to blows in Dalaran, and he was the mage responsible for saving Jaina Proudmoore during the destruction of Theramore, at the cost of his own life.
So what happens if the Demon Soul gets misplaced by the Dragonmaw? Well Alexstrasza breaks free early obviously. That’s a win right? Well, no, not really, because without Alexstrasza being imprisoned by the Dragonmaw, Krasus never plans to release her. Which means Rhonin and Vereesa never meet and Rhonin is never elevated to lead the Kirin Tor. And because he’s not the leader of the Kirin Tor, he’s unable to bring the Kirin Tor to the aid of Jaina in Theramore, meaning she dies there when the Mana Bomb goes off wiping out the city.
And if Jaina dies? Then the Siege of Lordaeron fails when Anduin and Genn are pushed back by the blight that Sylvanas unleashes. Worse still, Sylvanas may have been joined by Vereesa in undeath (she offered Vereesa a place by her side, but it was the love for her children which caused her to refuse, children she would no longer have because she never met Rhonin). Kul Tiras would never have been brought back into the Alliance, since Jaina was crucial in bringing them back into the fold.
And without Jaina, Baine would have died underneath Orgrimmar, since she was a key figure in saving his life (I’m sure some folks would cheer over that though).
So many things change all because Alexstrasza got freed early. And that’s precisely why, as horrible as it is, the Bronze Dragonflight pushes us to make sure that the Demon Soul remains in Dragonmaw hands. Because changing that event in time screws everything else up royally.
Also, side note, that assumes that we survived the Cataclysm, because it was the only a result of the Aspects pouring all of their power into the Dragon Soul we stole from the past that allowed Thrall to lance Deathwing with enough power to seriously weaken him and speed up his demise. If the Demon Soul was never destroyed by Rhonin, then the Aspects would not have had the strength to power up the Dragon Soul, so no lance of energy zapping Deathwing to weaken him.
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They should make it that Rhonin “misplaced” the scale of Deathwing he would later use to shatter the Dragon Soul. So we had to find it. Would play into his clumsy nature while exploring that particular time period.
Imo, it is fine when villains do villain things. But not when ‘heroes’ do it willingly. If we are duped, like how we were by Loken in Storm Peaks questing or forced to do it against our will, such as in the core race (minus pandaren) DK starting experience then sure. That is still a villain doing villain things, just using us to do it one way or another. But Chromie asking us to do something a villain would do for the sake of the ‘timeline’. Go away. At least the Culling of Stratholme and the Opening of the Dark Portal dungeons had the infinite dragonflight doing stuff to mess it up. Does not appear that they are involved in this one.
It also would’ve been conquered by Ashvane. Even after we defeated her forward forces, she still had a fleet large enough to conquer the city of Boralus. And Ashvane was being bank rolled by Azshara. Even at this stage.
It is a sad truth in some stories, where some horrible things have to occur to avoid an even bigger horrible thing from happening. I mean in She-ra (2018), if Hordak didn’t get to Adora first, Light Hope would’ve and if you have seen season 4 of the show, you know why that is a bad thing on a universal scale.
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Exactly, I mean what happened to Alexstrasza sucks, it does, 100% and as players I feel we shouldn’t be forced to be complicit in enabling that. But it still needs to be a thing that happened, because there’s simply far too much attached to that one event that all unravels without that happening.
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Zoom explained it best in Flashpoint. One single selfish action, causing a ripple across time. Until the future is unrecognizable.
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I did the Rogue Order Hall and I have very little idea who Amber Kearnan is.
It seems like she was an Alliance character in MoP questing? Which may be why people like you and I may not be aware of her. She was some Alliance spy or something who was in MoP questing, died in Legion questing, and made an appearance in Shadowlands as a spider-thingy in Maldraxxus working for the House of Eyes.
But this thread sort of moved passed her to discuss the Alexstrazsa situation.
Yes. I do think dark and horrible events can make a story interesting. I do not object to these events being part of the lore.
However, I do object to Blizzard having this odd desire to have the Players actively participate in it. It almost feels like they want us to get our hands dirty.
Having the Players participate in a SA simulator quest seems like something the Cosby Crew would have come up with. I guess old habits die hard.
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I don’t think we’re ‘actively participating in it’ because we’re not. It’s not like we’re taking the role of Dragonmaw Orcs and are using the Demon Soul to restrain Alexstrasza or anything like that. That would go to a level I don’t think ‘anyone’ could accept at all except serious rape apologists.
We’re just making sure the Demon Soul remains in their (the Dragonmaw’s) hands.
Which makes us, at worst, complicit. Like someone who drives a car that gets used in a robbery. If someone were to get murdered in the robbery, we’d be charged as an accessory, we’d be complicit, because we weren’t directly involved, but we did assist those who were involved.
I think that does need to be clearly defined, because there’s a big difference between active involvement and being complicit.
Like, to go for a specific SA example, a lot of people will argue, and I agree, that being silent when you see SA happening is being complicit. But I don’t think anyone would argue that being silent means you’re directly involved.
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