Think with talents MM could be RSV again. Just have one ability swap for the other.
Explosive Shot replaces Steady Shot.
Serpent Sting replaces Arcane Shot.
Double Tap could be Lock n Loaded.
Steady Shot could be useable while moving.
ES should replace Aimed, SrS just baseline, LnL should be a stand alone talent, Steady as you said.
What Naham said in his reply.
Besides, like Iāve said earlierā¦
They can ofc add in the core abilities from RSV(Explosive Shot + Black Arrow + Serpent Sting) as talent options in the MM spec, but these 3 abilities, will not give us the old RSV spec back.
It would require much more than that to actually make it feel like RSV.
Ofc, this might depend on who you ask. Some may be perfectly fine with only having those 3 abilities available to play with. I, wouldnāt beā¦
I would say that this was not an attempt at keeping the RSV spec in the game. The version of Explosive Shot that they gave us, was horrendous. Worked nothing like the old version.
The only similar thing about them, was the name.
6 Likes
Leave my badass hunter aloneā¦
1 Like
Nothing is happening to MSV, this is a discussion on how to bring back RSV, but not making the same mistake of it causing Hunters to loose a spec again.
2 Likes
He says that now, but you can never trust a dwarf.
At will better than smelling like a wet dog, and did you get that flea powder I sent ya?
Donāt encourage him Ogdenir 
At least this line of thinking has a chance of making more people happy/satisfied with the way the Hunter class is designed.
Compared to the never ending argument of RSV vs. MSV that others insist on continuing.
And to build on your previous argument for why SV should be a part of the MM spec.
The more things you add into MM that enhance the RSV playstyle, the less you would have left that is there to enhance what MM is currently about.
By the time you have enough things to make the way SV plays and the way it dealt damage(DoTs), feel good enough, the risk is that to little will be left from the current MM style itself.
Sure, many players dislike the current MM spec, but that does not mean that all of them would want it to completely change the way it works/is designed.
I know many hunters in the past who did not play the old SV spec because they felt that too much of itās damage was based on non-physical attacks. Others did not like it because it was more based on DoTs, and didnāt have a good way to set up burst windows(compared to most other specs).
4 Likes
If not me heāll just find the next poster. Trolls need bait.
MM had Black Arrow just re-add it as a talent that way if MM players want to use it they can still choose it. SS and ES are already talents and could have LnL as a level 90 talent option. It just peppering in a few RSV talents that replace some MM abilities and we could have something close to RSV again.
I this thread was a gif, it would be you two beating youāre heads against a wall, while simultaneously playing a bow like an electric guitar.
1 Like
Yes, you could get what you can call, the signature abilities through MM-talents. You could also add in some other SV talents, but like I said, at what point is it enough to actually make it feel like RSV? And at what point have so much changed within MM that some who like itās current focus, will no longer do so?
Not to mention the design philosophies of today that overall focus a lot on giving each spec and playstyle a clear definition/identity.
Does the old RSV not deserve that as well? Especially as if compared to how all the current hunter specs deal damage(in general). The RSV spec could easily be designed with more focus on DoTs and thus allow for the class to have a spec that actually strengthens us/makes the class better at dealing with certain encounters. Encounters where we are currently considered fairly weak.
3 Likes
Shouldnāt we forget about Legionās BA since it was a clear failed attempt at trying to make LW work without putting in the time it needs for them to succeed at it?
1 Like
Couldnāt agree more.
I would say the same about what they did with Explosive Shot for Legion.
Granted it was more an attempt at making it a niche AoE-ability. Ofc, it could very well be used as a ST ability due to itās design.
As I recall, the animation early in Legion was that of an actual rocket, wasnāt it?
Ironically, a rocket you fired with your ranged weapon. Because that made senseā¦
Is that still the case? I havenāt looked at it since the Legion Beta. Gave me enough nightmares as it wasā¦
1 Like
At this point we are hitting walls.
- Can not just erase MSV to bring back RSV.
- MM can not just have RSV talents.
- A fourth spec is very unlikely.
- BM can not be switched out for MSV.
- MSV can not have more range over Melee abilities.
We are stuck with what Blizzard has gaven us. Any change just comes at the cost or damage to one of the other specs. It does not seem there is a possiblity of RSV returning.
Why is this again?
This is what Ghorak said when I suggested the idea:
2 Likes
Thanks @Ogdenir.
To have a fun and fluid game play that is mobile and not as Pet dependent.
The point where it might as well be a 4th Spec, the whole point behind it.
So giving MM two options to have will not do this?
All my personal feelings aside, nope. It reached itās end and really had nowhere to go. BM is in the same boat. It could go Melee or it could go full on Summoner. Either way, BMās showing itās age just like SV was.
We werenāt strong on that before. RSV was more utilitarian than a DOT class. Iād rather see it become an actual support role again.
This is very much subjective.
If you ask me, you would have to switch out a fair number of things from the current MM in order to give us a proper updated version of the old RSV spec.
This is my point really. So much has to change in order to allow for a modern and defined version of SV to exist within MM.
So much that the current focus/core design of MM would be to diluted, and the risk is that those who like the current MM and itās design, would no longer do soā¦
Simply adding in what you would call the signature abilities of the old SV spec(Explosive Shot, as it was back then. Black Arrow, as it was back then(not in legion). And Serpent Sting).
Simply adding in these abilities into the MM talents. Wouldnāt give us an updated and defined iteration of the old SV.
It would just give us MM but with a few niched abilities that deviate from the core design of MM(as it is in BfA).
Iām not saying that my design suggestions are perfect for everyone. The perfect design can not be achieved. Itās impossible. Iām not even saying that the suggestions are perfect from a objective standpoint.
However, if you look at the suggestions. Would you still say that the old SV had nowhere to go from what it was like in WoD? And to what it could be, going forward into Legion?
Fair enough. But considering what Legion design philosophy did to specs and if you take into account the old SV and itās core focus.
Would you not say that it couldāve been THE spec, out of the hunter specs we had, that could be made to focus on that playstyle?
Iām not saying(have never saidā¦) that the old SV was the spec which allowed us to be strong at spread cleave or multi-dotting.
Iām saying that due to itās core fantasy of the past and how well it fit with the overall fantasy of the class, it could easily have been reworked into a spec that had this focus, going forward.
Fun, yes. Fluid, maybe. The rest aināt subjective.
Itāll be pretty close and thatās a start.
It went nowhere after MoP. People were told that they can get the play style and never got it. The idea that Blizzardās listening is a poor one. There are ways that they could have gone, but it would mean drastic changes.
Rest, meaning less dependency on pets?
Agreed. That was the whole reason as to why I chose to put anything beyond the very basics of pet use, as optional talents. So that players would have a choice if they want to rely more on pets or not.
If youāre suggesting the Lone Wolf option, fair enough. However, IMO, Lone Wolf should not be a norm if terms of the Hunter class design. It should be an outlier tied to one particular spec.
I agree that essentially no spec other than BM should have a lot to do with pets baseline. One reason for why Iām hesitant towards the current design of MSV.
But if you completely exclude pets from the table in terms of Hunter design, it severely limits what options you have. Take away even optional ways to focus on your pet, and soon, the class can no longer be recognized as the same, when compared to what it was in the past.
It would require you(as a developer) to make specs even more unique. Make them be even further apart gameplay-wise than they already are. Correct me if Iām wrong but, arenāt there a lot of players that donāt want each spec to feel like itās own āclassā?
Yes, design philosophies have changed over the years. Specs have changed a lot as well. But in the past, reliance on pets for Hunters, was the norm. Not the exception.
Should this change? Should pets no longer be a part of the core design of the class as a whole?
Keep in mind that, if your argument for this is that you hate the pet AI and so on, I wouldnāt agree to say that itās valid.
True, the pet AI isnāt working all that well(in many cases), but thatās not an excuse to suddenly remove a large chunk of what defined this entire class.
I disagree. I wouldnāt say that itāll be close at allā¦
āand thatās a start.ā ?
You expect them to add those abilities in with one expansion and then we should wait for the next expansion to get something else?
True, not much happened with it in WoD.
I would say that this was because of āa lack of vision for what it could becomeā. Not because, there wasnāt anything more you could do with it.
I would even say that not much was done to it as a result of early plans for a melee spec to be added to the class. I bet they thought a lot on the melee concept long before the development for Legion even started.
What would be a result of this? In their eyes, SV was probably the prime candidate for a melee option, due to itās past influences from Vanilla etc. That led them to think less about how itās current design(MoP/WoD) could be improved upon.
Expand on this please 
I would say that the changes we got with Legion(for pretty much all classes and specs) could be considered to be quiteā¦drastic. āGame-changingā evenā¦
Take my overall design direction as an example:
Going in that direction, wouldāve been much lessā¦drasticā¦than what they actually did with SV. When they made it a melee specā¦
True, the chance that we will ever see a 4th spec option added to the class, is probably very unlikely. Despite itās capability to meet the necessary criteria for a separate spec option.
But it is THE ONLY option that wouldnāt āharmā the other specs we have atm.
They(devs) made the mistake before to remove the RSV spec, resulting in many players who liked/loved that playstyle to be forced to play something else. OR quit.
The spec at the end of WoD, underperformed massively due to lack of tuning.
But the core of the spec and itās design, wasnāt bad.
They just thought at the time that the class shouldnāt have 4 available spec options. No matter the potential need for it, due to their own interest in adding a melee option.
They wanted to add in a melee spec. They did not want the class to have 4 spec options. They did not ask the community/playerbase what we wanted.
Iāve said this before but, if you claim to have an interest in making this game better for everyone, then this is not the direction you would want to takeā¦