This also goes hand in hand with Blizzard not going back on changes. If we want to see RSV again is will be either in talent choices within another spec, or Blizzard rebuilding RSV as a 4th option.
The arguing over for RSV to come back at the lost of MSV is just wasted time. Blizzard only reverts changes if they believe it was a horrible mistake on themselves; only thing they have admitted to was that MSV would be a niche spec with not many players. They have not though come right out and agreed it was a failure and they would change it back, but they did revamp it once again to a spec with range abilities but still melee at its core.
Think it would be more of a advantage to listen to some of the suggestions others have given than to have all this back and forth.
Yep, MSV had soething goes with it in Legion, but was gutted down to simplify its game-play. Now it seems less exciting when Blizzard just need to streamline its rotation, and it could have been more fulfilling to play.
I agree a lot with what you are saying, the story of the game is whatâs making me want to quit the game. Everything else I can enjoy, the route the writing team is taking is so wrong.
Was not using the forums to make judgments, just an observation in response to Entrerriâs assumption that artifact skins from Legion mean that Survival will never be changed again. Or Beast Mastery. Or any of the other 34 specializations in the game. Or that Blizzard wouldnât unlock them as normal transmogs regardless of specialization so long as they matched the regular restrictions in the future.
Going off of warcraftlogs alone?
That is only about a 1% increase over Legion Survival numbers which were dead last. Rogue has 3 specializations that still feel more like an unified class though and are part of the 19 melee fantasy pool.
Looking at Mythic Dazarâalor 79.8% of Hunters are Beast Mastery, 2% are Survival
Looking at Heroic Dazarâalor 79.5% of Hunters are Beast Mastery, 3.9% are Survival.
Hunterâs went from the most popular class in the game at just below 14% of all characters to tied for 4th at 10% overnight with the 7.0 patch. What changed in that patch for Hunters? Survival went melee. Those numbers have not climbed back much since and Hunter has not been the most popular class since.
Except there are 12 other melee DPS specs that can do everything MSV does, and generally better as well. 9 of those are in classes that can also tank and/or heal instead of being limited to DPS only. Survival is not an option for players who prefer ranged hunter just as Balance, Elemental, Fire, Frost, Arcane, Affliction, Destruction, Demonology, Shadow donât either. The majority of Hunter players (born out by the little data we have over the 2 recent expansions) will only switch between BM and MM and if one doesnât have an enjoyable rotation or mechanics then a significant number will still choose the âweakerâ spec. Because there literally arenât any other options available.
Your words not mine. I said there are 19 melee play styles to choose from. Thatâs quite a bit of variation there even if only 1 has a full time pet. The point being that itâs 9 times as many options as Ranged Shooter. Caster doesnât enter into the equation because itâs an entirely different play style to the historical hunter.
At the expense of quite obviously turning away more players than the change generated. Again, evidenced by the almost 180 in BFA with adding back more than a few copies of pre-Legion SV abilities in an attempt to pull some of those lost players back. Anyone who wants to try out melee combat has 12 other DPS specs and 6 tank specs nearly all of which have much stronger and more solidified fantasy themes across the WoW universe and in fantasy in general.
No one knows. But Survival was ranged from Vanilla in 2004 to Legion in 2016, fully melee for 1 expansion, and changed to favor ranged attacks from itâs ranged iteration for BFA. 12 years of success kind of trumps 4 years of existence.
Again, this misses the fact that there are many other melee specs that also perform better and most offer the ability to play at least 2 different roles but there are no other similar specs that offer that Legolas, Rambo, Robin Hood fantasy. Melee players thus stick to those classes that historically always have at least 1 good spec and FOTM swap between the other established melee classes. âWith a petâ might be a strong fantasy draw for some, but anyone willing to swap over numbers alone also realizes that, in WoW, pets are often more trouble than they are worth. Hence Lone Wolfâs popularity and the repeated calls in Legion for a Lone Wolf talent for Survival.
On what planet? Because on this one it has the worst ratings of any WoW expansion (including WoD) and almost certainly has the lowest number of subscribers ever judging from the decline in MAUâs across Blizzardâs titles and the plummeting stock prices.
edit:
Donât know why the forums decided to swap me to this paladin!
Not arguing that. Though, was my interpretation wrong?
I never said that the change was supposed to make the class overall more popular compared to what it was before Legion. I only said that my interpretation of Ionâs statement was that they wanted the class to cater towards players that werenât solely interested in ranged combat.
PS. I mean the original intent with the MSV design. They later redesigned it again for BfA in order to put in more elements that included ranged abilities because of the amount of vocal criticism towards the new spec design.
True, they did that. Although, if their goal was to remake it with the intent of allowing the players who loved the DoT-spec to return to it in BfA, I would argue they failed miserably.
Again, we are all different, and some players probably DID return and decided that they liked the new design. How many? No clue reallyâŚ
But, if you ask me. The MSV spec we have in BfA, plays/feels NOTHING like the past Survival did up until(and including) WoD.
If we weâre to go for an updated version of the old DoT-spec that was Survival. I would imagine it to be something like my suggestion in the link. Or at least something similar. Something that really focus on the core of DoT-management/enhancement.
And yes, there are optional choices that you can make to focus somewhat more on your pet. Which is also something that falls in line quite well with the core fantasy of the class and what it have always been in the past.
With Legion/BfA, we have seen a few outliers/niches being added to the class. Those include the new ranger-style of MM where pet involvement is not promoted in any way. And, you have the melee aspect of the current Survival spec.
If you ask me, like I said, those are outliers/niches that are intended to add more diversity between the specs. They arenât meant to be the new norm of the class. The norm/core of the class should still be, YOU as the hunter, fighting from afar while having the option to further be aided by a loyal companion(pet).
Again, this is how I view the class. Not saying that everyone feels the same.
I never said that there arenât any unique elements to the current MSV.
I just said that, in the current game, we have no way to tell if the current MSV spec or if an updated version of the old RSV would be the most popular. We can guess/estimate, but that would be all really. A guess.
Besides, what would be the point with making that comparison? We do NOT need to remove the current MSV in favor of bringing back an updated version of the old RSV spec.
Again, the more you decide to include these new aspects into more than, say 1 spec, then the more it will blur the different specs together. This would also take the class further away from what it has always been about in the past.
Which coincidentally is also the thing that was stated in the latest Dev insight video, is something they did not want to do. They said that, the changes made for Legion, with such a strong focus on spec identity/fantasy over the core fantasy of the class in the past, is part of the problem with class development(and perception).
Also, once you start to focus more on the numbers behind a specs performance rather than how the spec feels, fantasy-wise as well as to play.
Thatâs when you risk completely destroying it. Numbers performance should, for the most part, NOT determine the aspects of class/spec development.
The same has happened to me as well on my main account. I only really play on my hunter so donât know why it sometimes swap characters when visiting the forums.
No, nobody said that. Where would you come up with something so wrong? It was that we were promised the experience out of MM through talents and we never got it. If you want to go further, I suggested that we go through MM talents to get it later on down the road like Guardian came from Feral. I might as well add that those like you shot that down because it wasnât just purely bringing back RSV, it was still going to be MM.
The only place where Iâve heard/read something like that is in the interview conducted with the lead devs at the time. Where they explained part of their logic behind decisions made to convert Survival into a melee spec.
Iâve never heard a player that liked/loved the DoT-spec we used to have, never heard any of them say that they might as well go MM as itâs essentially the same.
And like you said, what we got within the MM talents(even those in Legion), it feels nothing like how the old Survival spec used to feel when playing.
They did split Feral/Guardian into two specs, for multiple reasons.
It was hard to provide two separate complete experiences contained within a single spec. Neither gave the appearance of being fully fleshed out.
Also, going forward, the matter of tuning made it more complex of a task to keep them both together. And moreâŚ
Depends on who you ask ofc. But IMO, even though there are ways you could insert the very core of what RSV was about into lets say MM through talents, it wouldnât have the most favorable outcome.
I said it as the best possible chance to get RSV back. Hold them to their promise and keep at it until we get the separation.
Itâs the best chance of getting it that we currently have. Iâll read your thread once I get some time. I stopped reading the EU forums a while back, I should go back to doing it.
F Rm - this is NOT meant to be a âHey, letâs remove melee survival in favor of thisâ-thread. Iâm very aware that there are people who like the melee-spec we got with Legion very much. And I agree, you should not remove it. This post was intended to be the âwhat if we could get it back in as a 4th specâ-thread.
For anyone who wants to, you will find my thought process for why I have chosen the design and the abilities/effects as well as talents that I did. You will find this in the comment/reply section below.
One thing about this: the old Lock n Load procs effectively gave you three Explosive Shots, while in this post it only gives you one. The thing where you wanted to cast a spell between every Explosive Shot cast to not clip the DoT was pretty integral to Survival gameplay IMO
Letâs take a min and think about things another way.
Is there a major weakness that another ranged spec could fulfill?
If we look at pvp and multi-dot/spread aoe/cleave raid encounters I would say yes. Range SV had the best traps and was extremely good at kiting and consistent damage. We also lost sidewinder in legion that was good for spread aoe/cleave. They could possibly fix this with a revamp of MM but they seem hooked on very slow and immobile gameplay, which is the opposite of what you would want with a petless spec but whatever. BM is too centralized on your pet, so it wouldnât work for this.
Is there a lack of choice for archer themed gameplay?
Obviously. If you want to be a knight with a sword you have: tank warrior, 2h warrior, dw warrior, dead tank warrior, dead warrior with pet, dead dw warrior, holy tank warrior, healing warrior, holy 2h warrior. When you create a char and look at your choice for archer, you only have Hunter, and now only have 2 options: Mobile hunter thatâs brought down by pet reliance, or immobile hunter that has boring slow gameplay.
So thereâs a niche another spec could fulfill and a lack of archer-themed gameplay. I donât think a 4th spec would be redundant. Thereâs also the possibility they add a Dark Ranger hero class and this could be fulfilled there.
Either way, saying that a 4th spec is not necessary is false.
Fair enough, may very well be that chance. Who knows.
Though I would personally prefer it if it would take them a little longer to give it back to us, and when/if they finally do that, it would be as a 4th option.
To see a re-implementation of a spec(or see a new spec), this will never happen in the middle of an expansion. If we see this sometime in the future, it would in that case happen when we transition between expansions.
Basically, we have 2 realistic options here(if you donât count the one where they just ignore the demand for this spec to make itâs return, which again, if you ask me, would be a mistake).
1: They decide to give it back to us as a sub-spec, through talent choices in the MM spec. This would be the easier option, though we would not see this until the next expansion anyway.
2: They actually go with the option to, like they did with druids, add a 4th spec to fully allow proper depth to be added to the spec.
This is ofc the option that will take the most time/work to complete. But, if they have already started working on it, or if they start doing so around the stage were in now, they will have more than enough time to have it ready for the next expansion.
A bonus here is that, like it has been said before, the 4th spec route allows us to keep the 3 current specs intact(as in, the RSV would not really affect them and how they are designed).
Cheers mate! Although, I have a copy of that thread on this hunter forum as well. Itâs essentially the same post(the suggestions). I added in some more motivation in the one below. [Suggestions updated] Pre-Legion/Ranged Survival
Donât hesitate to leave feedback if you have some!
Iâve had that design up for a while on various platforms to see what feedback I can get. And so far, people seem to like it. Only negative really that Iâve seen is the part within the talent section that involves your pet. Which I have since altered to be more about what your pet can do for you as the hunter rather than the opposite.
For anyone interested, here is my motivation as to why pet involvement in this spec should not be removed completely(and still, be entirely optional).
I decided to post it on multiple platforms/forums due to the fact that many individuals donât really visit more than one, or a few. Some, donât really check the official WoW forums while still visiting for example MMOC. And vice versa.
That thread has generated a lot of interesting points as well as feedback.
That first bold segment is an edit by me to highlight the fact that I donât want to remove MSV in favor of RSV. I did this as there were several replies where they simply dismissed the suggestions because they did not want MSV to be removed.
Which, despite it not being the goal, is something I very much understand. If you like a spec, obviously you would not want it to be removed/deleted(âŚhint).
Interesting point Zalgo. I did consider to include that original design as, like you said, it was very fun when those procs occurred.
In the end, I chose to go in the direction that I did as it allowed for more baseline player oriented choices to be made. You had more baseline control on how you wanted to set everything up.
The original design was, you had Explosive Shot with a 6 sec CD. That was it really unless you got those L&L procs.
New design, Explosive Shot in itself works the same, although you have 2 charges baseline and a 10 second CD up from 6. And you also have the ability to, on demand, add in another charge through the activation of Rapid Fire(major CD). As well as the chance to gain additional free charges through L&L.
How big would that proc chance be? No idea really as it most likely would require some testing to see what feels right.
Survival got changed because Hunter was deemed too similar and Survival supposedly lacked a clear theme. Survival Legion didnât get a clear theme as it threw together melee, pets, and traps in a haphazard fashion stitched together at the last moment. Survival BFA didnât get a clear theme again because it became melee Beast Mastery âwith tinkersâ.
Of course, this also stems from taking unified classes with specializations and in some cases, like Survival, moving too far away from the Class theme with over emphasis on the specialization. Compounded in the Hunter class with clearly having no clear vision for the Class while also giving zero thought to itâs popularity.
Going back to themes and choices. Marksmanship has historically been the least mobile, slowest paced, and least active/reactive Hunter and has historically been the least popular Hunter except when talents, spell changes, and/or set bonuses changed that. Beast Mastery has always been highly popular because itâs a mobile spec that is great for solo content and can collect the widest range of pets. Survival was right in the middle of the two fantasies being highly mobile, fast paced and reactive, with strategic use of a pet rather than DPS reliance on a pet with more player damage and more impactful player damage.
As a 2 spec Archer class we now have these options:
A pet buff bot that has ZERO impactful ranged attacks. You get a lot of damage over the course of a long fight via hundreds of Auto-Shots, Cobra Shots, and Barbed Shot casts. But none of those feel good to use on their own and particularly in shorter combat. It has exactly 1 ranged talent option that does hit harder but needs 2 targets to deal maximum damage.
A very slow paced spec focused around planting and casting long cast Aimed Shots with all the mechanics centered around these slow immobile casts. And with lots of âconditionalâ requirements. At best, it is very annoying in group content, okay in solo content, and good for stealth openers in chaotic PvP.
There is nothing that bridges the gap between those 2 extremes. Weâve also lost that Class overlap that gave Beast Mastery more Ranged attacks.
In Cataclysm you had: Kill Shot, Serpent Sting, Arcane Shot, Cobra Shot along with the push-pull pet synergy of Frenzy/Focus Fire and Cobra Strikes/Invigoration where the Hunter and Pet were equal partners working in tandem and supporting each other rather than the current iteration of âtoken rangedâ while buffing and commanding a pet. (This was also fairly close to WoLK Beast Mastery.)
In Mists of Pandaria you had all of the same plus the talent choice between Powershot, Barrage, and Glaive Toss.
So prior to Legion not only did you have a much wider range of player based ranged attacks, but you also had more hard hitting ranged attacks and thus more player damage to buff and utilize within Bestial Wrath windows.
Playing live MM feels like being stuck in Tar Traps and Binding Shots. Playing BM on live feels like being at a retriever or pointer competition blowing whistles and issuing commands.
I always thought old Survival had a pretty clear theme- sort of like an Enhancement Shaman is to an Arms Warrior. While Marksman pulls off crazy skillful shots, Survival used enhanced ammo (poisonous arrows through Cobra Shot, Serpent Sting and Spread, magical arrows through Black Arrow and Arcane Shot, fire arrows with Explosive Shot) to kill things without being as careful or precise as, well, a Marksman.
Nowadays Survival doesnât have as clear of a theme to me- itâs a melee fighter (RS, Carve, WC) with tinker elements (WFB, SS, Steel Trap) that donât make any sense being in melee (blowing up bombs in your face and quickly swapping your polearm for a tiny crossbow?), that also commands a pet as masterfully as BM (KC, CA, SB, FS)?
RSV didnât fit the name after Vanilla really. It had a great thematic theme, DOT Based Utility (CC and a buff in BC) but it wasnât a Survival spec anymore, and that is not a nock on the Spec either.
Think guerrilla soldier with a pet at your side. Yes itâs more of a Beast Master than BM is, but you are using gadgets and poisons to aid you and your Pet (read Partner) in battling your foe. Itâs more of a Survivalist in the purest sense than it has been in years.
I can agree with that- Survival as a name didnât fit the spec at all, and while I donât think it fits the spec as it is either itâs definitely better than before. Another reason to bring it back as a fourth spec (if it does come back, that is) I suppose.
