What the…why am I agreeing with you?
nope. just need blizz to learn how to design.
So? That’s something BM has to deal with right now. And it’s not like BM can do much without the pet active regardless of being ranged…
What exactly are you hoping to get out of this class? This is a class historically defined by the ranged weapon and the pets, and you don’t like either of those.
No, you can’t have a melee Hunter spec without a pet because it would simply cease to be a Hunter at that point. The pet is the only thing that ties Survival to the class. Hey, that’s why people think BM should have been melee instead!
It seems like what you are looking for is a 3rd Warrior DPS spec. Are you a Warrior main? It would explain a lot, and your Hunter sure does look like an alt at best.
So, yeah, you’re just after Arms Warrior 2.0. Why don’t you go play that spec and ask Blizzard to change it for your liking instead of invading our class and trolling our forums?
False equivalency. The Survival change was way, way bigger than any other spec change ever.
We also shouldn’t expect such negative changes coming to these specs. Blizzard isn’t some unpredictable force of nature that can’t be reasoned with, as much as their ignoring of feedback can make it feel like that at times. These are supposedly experienced and skilled designers working to improve the game. We shouldn’t say “oh well, the forces of class design decided to give your spec the short end of the stick this time” and leave it at that. If they make a change that makes a spec worse, which melee for Survival absolutely did, we should call them out on it and demand change. It might not achieve anything, but throwing our hands in the air and declaring “Oh well, Blizzard has spoken” guarantees no change.
Oh, and “evolve” implies “got better”, which does not seem to be the case for the majority of specs that went through the Legion class design meatgrinder.
Yes, actually. If they made changes that made the specs worse, they should go back to the old versions. If Blizzard is worried that reverting SV will make other people ask for reversions, maybe they shouldn’t be taking an approach to class design that makes people want reversions in the first place. There is something seriously wrong with the state of the game were we have this almost across-the-board desire for specs to be in a state from an older expansion, particularly WotLK or MoP from what I’ve seen. Thinking they should avoid any single reversion so as not to add pressure on other specs tells me that your priorities are totally upside-down on this matter.
As for the Demo example: I realise some people like the BFA iteration but I’ve seen very, very few people who say it is better than the pre-Legion iteration. I know a couple formerly very dedicated demo warlocks who quit the spec over the changes. It’s usually favourably compared to the Legion iteration but that’s not a tough bar to beat. Hey, that all sounds a lot like Survival…
You might think this is a virtuous attitude but it’s actually toxic, defeatist, and nonconstructive. You’re demanding that people unconditionally accept all changes unconditionally and refrain from any feedback. That’s detestable, so thank you for your “advice” but kindly take it elsewhere.
They tried full melee in Legion and it predictably crashed and burned. That ship sailed. Go back to the Warrior class and keep your melee fantasies there, thanks. Hunters don’t need them.
Reading that interview is like reading the commentary of a couple of people who had never played WoW before and were tasked with reading each spec description and giving their thoughts on the identity of each spec. It’s no surprise that under their direction class design utterly faceplanted in Legion. If Blizzard had any sense they would take them off class design ASAP if they haven’t already. I don’t know about Travis Day, but Adam Kugler’s background is Diablo VFX; he clearly has no relevant skill in class design and it really does show.
Does it make sense for Survival of all specs to have that archetype? This spec has always been the resourceful opportunist that uses every available advantage to win the fight. Is there anything possibly more contradicting of that, or even the very name Survival, than arbitrarily ditching the ranged weapon and sticking to the infinitely-more-dangerous melee range?
Also, in all practicality, there are already plenty of melee archetypes represented in this game while BM and MM are the only two ranged weapon archetypes. We are missing out on a lot of ranged weapon fantasy exploration for another stock-standard melee. I know from your other posts that you’re ridiculously biased towards melee and that’s probably a product of you playing a melee class, but take a moment to consider this.
It’s weird how you spent the whole thread backing up ranged Survival only to post such obviously nonsense points like this, but at this point I’m pretty used to you regularly switching between pro-melee and pro-ranged with respect to SV.
You know very well this point isn’t true. Survival was well and truly a popular Hunter spec and spent most of its existence when it was ranged as such. It certainly wasn’t preferred in Vanilla and BC (although it was still better than MM in the latter) but there were 4 expansions after that where it was an immensely popular spec to play. Describing it as “niche” is totally inaccurate. Stop playing the “desperately centrist” angle.
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O Bepples you scamp, lol that name.
Yea I was just spitballing. Would I like more melee, yes do I need it, not at all. I don’t need anything from SV. SV is great at it is.
And I do play Warrior…it’s a great class also. Arms isn’t as strong solo as SV. Hence why I like SV more.
Pretty happy with it as it is, although again Lonewolf for SV would be cool.
Thank God ranged SV is dead. Now the spec has its own very unique identity.
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I have made it clear that I appreciate both versions of the Survival. This was not kill melee bring back range post. Both versions have equal right to exist, but right now range would be greatly needed to bring Hunters back up in raid positions. Would have it been better if I had said range SV had its “place” in the Hunter community, while it had its high points it still was not as overly popular as BM, or MM.
You continue to want this to be a right or left discussion, you are either on my side and hate melee or you are one of them. I, on the other hand, try to borrow ideas from the left, the right, and elsewhere, melding them together looking for a even ground that can keep both side from fighting instead of the usual self-defeating threads that end in ‘who is rightmost’.
There’s always a first ![:kissing_smiling_eyes:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/kissing_smiling_eyes.png?v=6" ":kissing_smiling_eyes:")
So your opinion is fine but mine isnt I guess. Don’t worry, I voiced my opinion loudly about how I hated legion spec and how bfa is even worst. I’m just saying I’m not going to wait for lock to be fun again while playing it. I still enjoy the game regardless. I’m not the kind to wait, I want yo have fun now, ence why I’m not playing my lock much.
Its true that my message might have felt defeatist but its not the intention. I did not say “give up” but “move on” there is quite a difference.
Regardless, I understand the feeling and maybe the devs might listen, but I don’t feel your arguments of the spec did better before are helping. You need allies in this topic if you want to have any weight and it does not feel like that. Just feels like your a spoiled brat that lost his favorite toy… does not help this case much but oh well, GL man (edit typo)
NO
stabs
This confirms what I said in my last post. You’re not looking for a Hunter experience. You’re looking for a Warrior experience. If you want a better Arms Warrior, why not stick to your Warrior and push for the improvements you’d like to see for that spec? You don’t need an Arms Warrior in another class. Should we also make Fire Mage a melee pseudo-Warrior because you want a foothold in that class too?
Evidently not since the best description you can come up with it is “Arms Warrior but a bit different”.
That’s still wrong. If anything, when looking at the pre-Legion period MM was the stepchild spec more often than SV was. SV’s popularity was always up there with the other two specs post-WotLK, with the sole exception of HFC which seems to be the centre of your argument. Even before WotLK it wasn’t exactly forgotten: you are looking at SV being the PvP spec/high-agility spec for PvE in some cases in Vanilla and in TBC it was actually better to bring one to a raid than Marksmanship due to Expose Weakness. This idea that it was a niche spec is baseless. Not only was it mained by a lot of Hunters but it was one of the game’s most popular alt specs too.
To you this might sound virtuous but in reality it leads to you deliberately taking positions that are baseless/not true so as not to seem biased. It’s the fallacy of moderation, i.e. believing the truth lies somewhere in the middle. To quote the common example, it’s like if you came across someone saying the sky is blue and someone claiming the sky is yellow, and saying “oh well, the sky must be green since that’s the middle ground”. No, one side is just factually wrong. In this case, saying Survival was usually a niche spec before Legion is factually wrong. HFC is an exception to a long line of Survival popularity. Sometimes I think Blizzard deliberately killed the spec in 6.2 specifically so people would remember it as an unpopular spec, i.e. to make the incoming melee spec look better.
Yes, there’s a difference. “Move on” is what you say when something irreversible/out-of-control happens. It’s what you say if someone dies, for example. You can’t bring them back to life, so moving on is the only choice. Like I said in my post, class design is not some uncontrollable, unpredictable, natural force. It’s people making decisions, and they can be influenced. As maligned as BFA is it actually brought a lot of improvements to the Hunter class. For MM and SV thse improvements manifested as a partial walkback on the Legion changes, like Steady Shot returning to MM and Serpent Sting returning to SV. We can and should go back, or at least return the best aspects of pre-Legion Hunters.
This is just immature tone-policing. I’ve met many people over the years who are eager to see the return of ranged SV. Some of them are here in this thread, some of them don’t post on forums, and sadly some of them have indeed “moved on” i.e. quit the class or the game, which is a bad thing contrary to be belief of some. Even among people who don’t have a strong opinion on the issue, I see disintrest and dismissal of Survival the likes of which it never saw before Legion. So I think keeping this discussion alive is important and I’m not concerned with whether or not you think I’m “helping”.
6 Likes
They did kinda kill the spec in 6.2. as you will recall, after the devastating Nerf to serpent sting, that broke the spec, that Nerf was never reversed.
Reverse that Nerf and then add some crit/haste scaling to our dots and boom, viable all over the board again . Though now that we don’t have as many aspects they might need to buff the abilities. The aspect of the hawk, attack power gain/loss, might hurt as well unless things are tuned up well in the ptr
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No Bepples you’re wrong. I like playing both classes/specs. Imagine that!
Crazy concept I know.
You’re right champ, let me rephrase.
SV is like an Arms warrior, but better! Thank God ranged SV died!
I hope I’m here the day Bepples realizes ranged SV isn’t coming back.
Nah, it’s coming back… it’ll be the ranged spec for the new Tinker class coming next expansion. ![:wink:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/wink.png?v=6" ":wink:")
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I know you’er going to get criticized thinking this, but really would like this next expansion.
Let it have explosive shot, turrents, and gernades.
It’s okay. Criticism, as long as it’s constructive, is okay. I would certainly play it and I think it would be a fairly popular class.
I’ve posted about this before, but I could see it being a mail wearing, mech-tank, bandage-bazooka-shooting-healer, and explosive/poison-bomb-hurling-grenadier. But that’s only if I was in charge. Who knows, but I can keep my fingers crossed and enjoy the new survival until then.
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What about a Dark Ranger class? Seems feasible and would make sense to have at least one fully ranged spec. There could be cool blight related abilities.
Like your optimism, range dps, healer, tank. Uses mail armor. If range SV not coming back another range spec would make me happy.
Darkranger would have to bring a new play-style, otherwise people would call it emo mm. Black arrow as baseline ability, maybe petless, and uses shadow magic or void energy, cross between spreist and a subrogue.
I think a hunter class returning to the old traits is less likely. Would rather a bard or ranger class that has some of these, and keep Hunter as a strictly pet class instead.
I’d be fine with an alternative gun kiting class, even if it had deadzone and no pets. Hunter is so boring, but the numbers say it is in the top 3 most played, so i’m happy so many stick with it.
Can say same thing with DKs, never found them interesting enough to level the rotation seems so slow.
A Tinker range spec, Dark Ranger, or Shadow hunter may be a nice change to range classes.
It still wouldn’t have been viable in 6.2 due to the legendary ring which favoured specs with 2-minute CDs and the encounter design which focused on priority add burst, but yes those changes would have been good and the spec would have held up in other raids.
You like playing Warrior, and you like playing SV because it’s pretty much the same as playing a Warrior. The only thing about the spec that still ties it to the Hunter class (the pet) is something you want removed.
Or, alternatively, you could go play Arms and push for the changes you want to see in that spec so that you don’t need to reserve 1/3 of another class for “Arms but better”. Then Survival can go back to being an actual Hunter spec. Then everyone wins. It’s actually better for you because you then get to stick to your main. I’m assuming your Warrior is your main because judging by your armory progress it doesn’t look like your Hunter is.
Since the day they announced melee Survival I’ve accepted that it’s unlikely we’ll ever see ranged Survival again. That doesn’t mean I won’t push for it. Everyone thought melee was never coming to the Hunter class when MoP launched.
8 Likes
To be fair. I said it would have to have nerfs removed. Buffed some. And tuned up in the public test realm.