WC3 reforged datamining (post updated with models)

[Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord (Dreadmoore)]

Gib Frostmourne.

[Kyveli-aerie-peak (Kyveli)]

@Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord

Gib Frostmourne.

[Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord (Dreadmoore)]

Bless.

[Kyrrena-icecrown]

On that we agree, but it’s kind of a “good” impatience, if that makes sense. I want it now, but I’m more than happy to wait so that when it launches it will be everything I wanted.

[Resileaf-wyrmrest-accord]

Pretty much. I’m fidgeting like a kid on Christmas eve. I want my gifts, dammit, but I’m gonna wait.

[Rothiron-maelstrom (Rothiron)]

((Mega post incoming, actually thinking it might be prudent to make into a new thread. Let me know if you want me to do that, Resileaf.))

I doubt it. It’s all pretty bad.

To be honest, my rose-tinted glasses with Warcraft 3 have faded in recent years. That’s not to say that it isn’t great, I still think its probably the pinnacle of Warcraft lore. But WoW isn’t devoid of moments that can match the RTS.

I mean, instead of changing pre-established lore, they can create new lore and make those zones exactly as they were… Again, not seeing the issue here.

I asked you for examples. For candidates. And saying “just create new lore” is easier said than done.

Bear in mind, every new zone added comes with the caveat of needing to be retconnned into the geography of Azeroth. Ala Uldum and the Twilight Highlands. Outland, Northrend, Pandaria, Old Draenor, the Broken Isles, Argus, Kul’tiras, and Zandalar are all actually examples of taking a pre-established lore location and expanding on them for more content. Not even in a matter that entirely invalidates previous lore. For example, you can logically reason that the rest of the Broken Isle zones simply weren’t seen during Warcraft 2 and Warcraft 3 (and before you go on about maps not supporting that, just wait until you see the part of my post where I point out Warcraft 3’s changing of the maps from the previous game).

It’s still pretty bland, and does more in the service of homogenization than anything else.

Well, we’ll have to agree to disagree. I think its better lorewise than just doing the thread bare minimum of copying real world religion into the game, which is lazy storytelling and world building.

I like them both and I don’t think anything about Warcraft 3 contradicts Warcraft 1

You’d be wrong. I’ll go over inconsistencies between the lore in Warcraft 1 and 2 contrasted with later entries.

• In Warcraft 1, demons are referred to as beings of Hell and the underworld, with the Orc’s powers being referred to as from here. Even by Warcraft 2, references of the Twisting Nether would replace these, though demons are still referred to as belonging to “lower planes”.

• Blackhand is betrayed by the Horde player character in Warcraft 1 (Orgrim Doomhammer, obviously) with the support of the Shadow Council, yet in Lord of the Clans the Shadow Council is a clear enemy of Orgrim’s in the backstory.

• Warcraft 2 states that Alexstrasza was freed but random dragons just fought alongside the orcs after being accustomed to it, whereas by Warcraft 3’s manual it states they were freed after the full events of Warcraft 2.

• Medivh’s nature as a Guardian was not exposited/conceptualized until Warcraft 2.

• Orgrim’s ambush in Warcraft 2 was done against a Lothar seeking peace terms, but in Warcraft 3’s manual indicates it was an ambush in the middle of a battle.

• The backstory given in Warcraft 1’s manual indicates that Medivh had no friendship with either Lothar or Llane. Contradicted by the novel The Last Guardian (though technically this came after Warcraft 3’s initial release, simply in the same year).

• Sargeras’ true identity as a fallen Titan as indicated in Warcraft 3’s contradicts his established backstory as a demon in Warcraft 2.

• Grim Batol seems to be indicated as a orc base they built in Warcraft 2 (not to mention it had to be “found”), similar to Blackrock Spire.

And that’s not getting into the map incompatibilities. No contradictions between Warcraft 1 and 3 here, but Warcraft 2 and 3 have clear glaring issues.

https://gamepedia.cursecdn.com/wowpedia/c/c9/Warcraft_II_-_Map_of_Eastern_Kingdoms.jpg

https://gamepedia.cursecdn.com/wowpedia/6/6d/Warcraft_III_-_Azeroth.jpg

And if you’d allow me an exercise in ripping out zones in WoW with no clear replacement for them due to the geological restrictions placed on follow Warcraft 1 and 2’s maps…

• Burning Steppes - Gone

• Searing Gorge - Gone

• Deadwind Pass - Gone

• Silverpine Forest - Gone

• Western Plaguelands - Gone

• Twilight Highlands - Gone

• Hinterlands - Gone (Alterac, Stratholme, and Arathi are moved around and seem to squeeze it out).

Look, I won’t say that Blizzard’s tendency to retcon their last five seconds of thought is good in general or results in unilaterally positive changes, but retconning has been a necessary evil for the development of the setting to evolve in a way that facilitates content and gameplay, even by the time Warcraft 3 rolled along.

A hard stance against the use of retcons would simply limit the setting to the early day of concepts back when Blizzard was new to the business and only had like one quarter of the world we know now fleshed out.

Edit: A bit of a PS, looking back now, I sorta wish they kept the style of the Warcraft 2 map overall for WoW rather than having all the zones be surrounded by mountains which makes the map design look off to anyone with knowledge of how landmasses work.

[Aurirel-wyrmrest-accord]

I think the mountains exist to contain the zones without having to worry about the transition to a different climate or players wandering off into a higher level area by mistake.

[Gärithos-moon-guard (Gärithos)]

So the only way to get those skins is to pre-order?

I think it would be like those custom skins in SC2 that are available in ranked pvp. Not that it would be unavailable in custom games and the world editor.

HOWEVER. I am just making a guess based on how SC2 works. I have no verified confirmation and I also would like to know for sure.

[Cursewords-tichondrius (Cursewords)]

Bring back cheat codes!

Was I the only honest RT player? Seemed like everyone had map hack or something. Or those bots that did everything for you.

If Reforged is free of hacks and such nonsense for Ladder RT and AT, I might buy it.

[Akiyass-moon-guard (Akiyass)]

And saying “just create new lore” is easier said than done.

Just about everything is easier said than done, that doesn’t mean anything. Blizzard is in the business of creating new lore… But the lore they create tends to contradict preestablish lore, which requires retcons to be made. I think its detrimental to gone back and change the lore people liked in order to fit the new lore that people like less or not at all.

Not even in a matter that entirely invalidates previous lore.

If it doesn’t contradict preestablished lore, then its not relevant to the discussion.

bare minimum of copying real world religion into the game

That’s what it is though… At least in regards to humans. You know what they could have done? They could of had the Draenei have a faith was was completely unique to them, and alien, and not at all derivative of the Holy Light faith popularized in human culture. That isn’t what they did… What they did was “Oh, these aliens from another world believe in the same things… plus with some weird chandeliers.”

boring.

In Warcraft 1, demons are referred to as beings of Hell and the underworld, with the Orc’s powers being referred to as from here. Even by Warcraft 2, references of the Twisting Nether would replace these, though demons are still referred to as belonging to “lower planes”.

This isn’t an inconsistency. Hell is something that is referred to a lot. In Warcraft 1, 2, 3 and WoW. It could be a place that exists within the Twisting Nether, or it could be something derived from human folklore. I don’t see this as an inconsistency at all.

Blackhand is betrayed by the Horde player character in Warcraft 1 (Orgrim Doomhammer, obviously) with the support of the Shadow Council, yet in Lord of the Clans the Shadow Council is a clear enemy of Orgrim’s in the backstory.

There is nothing about the Warcraft 1 campaign to suggest the player character has the support of the Shadow Council.

Warcraft 2 states that Alexstrasza was freed but random dragons just fought alongside the orcs after being accustomed to it

This is never said.

Medivh’s nature as a Guardian was not exposited/conceptualized until Warcraft 2.

So?

Orgrim’s ambush in Warcraft 2 was done against a Lothar seeking peace terms, but in Warcraft 3’s manual indicates it was an ambush in the middle of a battle.

These two are not mutually exclusive. A battle could have easily broken out following an attempt of negotiations. Considering that it wasn’t so much Lothar asking for peace as much as it was Lothar demanding surrender, this makes perfect sense to me.

The backstory given in Warcraft 1’s manual indicates that Medivh had no friendship with either Lothar or Llane. Contradicted by the novel The Last Guardian (though technically this came after Warcraft 3’s initial release, simply in the same year).

I don’t see a contradiction. Medivh didn’t have any friends, just acquittances, and Khadgar.

Sargeras’ true identity as a fallen Titan as indicated in Warcraft 3’s contradicts his established backstory as a demon in Warcraft 2.

No it doesn’t… Sargaras is a demon. The same way Archimond and KJ are demons. Just because they were once something else doesn’t change what they are now.

Grim Batol seems to be indicated as a orc base they built in Warcraft 2 (not to mention it had to be “found”), similar to Blackrock Spire.

No it’s not. Grim Batol was just said to be the base of the Horde’s refinery operations. It was never suggested to be a place the orcs built themselves. In fact, it is found in Khaz Modan, which is consistently said to be Dwarven lands.

but Warcraft 2 and 3 have clear glaring issues.

Again, I think they should have stuck to the original map.

• Burning Steppes - Gone
• Searing Gorge - Gone

Could easily be placed surrounding Blackrock Mountain.

Deadwind Pass - Gone

Has been there since WC1

Silverpine Forest - Gone

Could still very easily be placed where it is.

Western Plaguelands - Gone

Western Northernlands… Still there in WC2

Twilight Highlands - Gone

Debatable. Could easily fit within the Mountain Range around Grim Batol. It wouldn’t look the same, but it would resemble actual highlands.

Hinterlands - Gone (Alterac, Stratholme, and Arathi are moved around and seem to squeeze it out).

All such places are present in WC2

Dude… everything you have said is wrong. You are being intentionally disingenuous, and half of your points are non-arguments. Just drop it and move on. This is exhausting.

[Rothiron-maelstrom (Rothiron)]

There is nothing about the Warcraft 1 campaign to suggest the player character has the support of the Shadow Council.

Wait… did… did you not take the time to actually check this for yourself? Because it’s right in the narrated text scrolls.

“The destruction of Blackhand’s outpost has left him in a weak position. The Shadow Council, sensing your rise in power, orders the assassination of Blackhand and elevates you to the position of War Chief.”
-Orc Mission 8 Text Scroll

“What new conquests await you in this place? The Shadow Council has begun to bring you information concerning the lands across the sea that are as yet untouched by Orcish rule. The warlocks also seek your permission to resume their experiments with the portal, their intent being the subjugation of other worlds.”
-Orc Victory Text Scroll

I kinda don’t feel a need to respond further. You insinuate that I am being “intentionally disingenuous”, and then you miss the details that are as easy to get as watching someone’s youtube video collecting these details together?

https://youtu.be/BVFXi5AIO5w?t=302

Yeah, I’m just going to let this thread go back to being entirely about Warcraft III Reforged models and stuff.

Dem gnolls. Dey got teeth.

[Denona-khazgoroth (Denona)]

Hey they added Thalorien Dawnseeker and Quel’Delar.

I wonder if blizzard will add in Lana’thel into the final mission of the scourge campaign in Frozen Throne as an enemy.

[Kynariia-caelestrasz (Kynariia)]

I wonder if blizzard will add in Lana’thel into the final mission of the scourge campaign in Frozen Throne as an enemy.

Wasn’t she raised some time after TFTs campaign ends? Thought she fell victim to the hunts that took place to wipe out Belf survivors in Northrend.

[Kynariia-caelestrasz (Kynariia)]

Pretty sure you just have to buy the Spoils of War edition to recieve the skins.

[Nightlighter-quelthalas (Nightlighter)]

I don’t like the thought of Cenarius being corrupted by the Emerald Nightmare =(

[Ximothy-silvermoon (Ximothy)]

Denona did “as an enemy” so she would be on the Blood elves’ side, so no raising needed.

I don’t like the thought of Cenarius being corrupted by the Emerald Nightmare =(

It already happen though. It’s probably just a skin.

[Kyveli-aerie-peak (Kyveli)]

It already happen though. It’s probably just a skin.

You mean we won’t see Cata Thrall, BfA Jaina, and living King Arthas in the campaign!?

[Ximothy-silvermoon (Ximothy)]

You mean we won’t see Cata Thrall, BfA Jaina, and living King Arthas in the campaign!?

Who knows, maybe we’ll get Warcraft Reforged: Shatter of Time and we gather various heroes from different timelines.

[Kyveli-aerie-peak (Kyveli)]

Sounds like it’d be a fun fan campaign.

[Ximothy-silvermoon (Ximothy)]

Sounds like it’d be a fun fan campaign

If it’s just us jumping around What If scenarios with no larger consequence on the main timeline, I mean why not? Would be fun for a few hours.