Warcraft: Sylvanas spoilers

This is a point I have tried to get across multiple times in the past. Sadly though, the general outlook of most others, is that their version of fair is where they get all the rewards, do none of the work, and everybody else faces the consequences.

Correction; PelArbiter says he believes every soul should have a chance at redemption. He literally starts the sentence with “if you ask me…”.

He in not making a definitive statement. He is clear that it his personal opinion.

Kleia says: I confess that as an aspirant, I did not think of such things… only of duty. It was not until I witnessed Uther’s plight that I recognized the injustice of the Maw.

Arbiter Pelagos says: Never again will a mortal soul be sent to its depths. All deserve a chance at redemption.

His personal opinion is the law of the Shadowlands. So now everyone, no matter if they were as bad or worse then Arthas, would get that chance.

You have been arguing 2 different points and trying to combine them into one, from what I can see. One legit, and one not. Yes Arthas, got screwed over and denied proper judgement, maybe with Garrosh too, where Denathrius was involved, kind of iffy there. The system was being subverted. This is legit.
However, this does not change the fact that in their mortal lives on Azeroth, they were completely irredeemable monsters. They started good, they made questionable decisions, slowly got worse, and finally took joy in their atrocities. You can’t change that, just because in-game rules are changing now, doesn’t erase any of that.

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This statement is probably at the core of the sentiment, if I had to amateur analyze your argument. And I agree. Like, how can you say “We have to be very careful with how we use a character like Arthas.” And then do that?

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Pelagos says: Nadjia has a point. But if you ask me… well, I think every soul deserves redemption.

Still an opinion.

We know Arbiters don’t work that way. Zovaal was the original Arbiter. His word was not law in the Shadowlands.

Except apparently now the Shadowlands is now setup so no one is irredeemable. So if a person worse then Arthas end up killed and sent to PelArbiter, he or she will get a shot at redemption. I mean, we might as well say The Accuser would be an irredeemable monster in life but will get a shot at redemption regardless.

Except this is now what is going to happen to the Shadowlands. No one will ever go to the Maw again and everyone will get a shot at redemption.

A person as worse if not worse then Arthas, will get a shot at redemption, which transitively means no one is irredeemable/everyone deserve a shot at redemption.

I did say that the book will dig up bigger holes to try and fill in the existing ones :stuck_out_tongue:

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They won’t go to the Maw, true. They will go to Revendreth.

But this is entirely irrelevant to what we were discussing: whether choice or circumstances were more relevant. If you’d rather shift the goal post to this, then cool.

This might be true, but then again we don’t the full story, and lore behind her either. We do know however, that she did seek, and eventually did find, redemption. Garrosh made it clear (in the Maw no less), he never wanted it. The lore proved Arthas was the same way. You can’t change their established lore history, simply because the judgement rules for others changed now.
Illidan helping to save the universe, doesn’t erase his nasty past either.

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I already gave my answer to that a while back

Arguing differing soteriology when Blizzard does not and did not think about any coherent cosmic soteriology in-universe is absurd

Arguing the fact that blizzard themselves and now TWO cannon novels said, without a doubt that Arthas was a evil individual who sought to usher in his own plans for Domination is somehow a redeemable character is the asinine and absurd part.

How many times will it take for blizz to beat Arthas stans over the head with the fact that Arthas was NOT A REDEEMABLE person before it finally sinks in? :wolf:

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“It doesn’t matter what I say, as long as I sing with inflection that makes you feel I’ll convey an inner truth of vast reflection. But Ive said nothing so far, and I can keep this up as long as it takes. It doesnt matter who you are— if I’m doing my job, it’s your resolve that breaks.”

Hook, by Blues Traveller (Lyrics by John Popper)

And I responded. And we’d been going back and forth on it for a bit before you shifted goal posts.

Are you okay Zerde? This isn’t like you.

I did not shift the goal post. As you mentioned we have been going back and forth on this without anything happening. We moved to the whole Pelagos thing because again, it is another proof circumstances trump your decisions. If Arthas’ had just died/not had his soul turned to mush until after we got Pelarbiter working, he would have gotten the chance to redeem himself.

Tell that to Pelagos, again he has said everyone is redeemable and he gets to make sure no one gets thrown into the Maw ever again.

Maybe Arthas did deserve to be judged but that’s not what they wrote, There may come a time where the Timeline breaks and you may get your wish of an AU Arthas who is happily married to Jaina. But until that happens that is wishful thinking. I will not begrudge you wishful thinking, but this timeline Arthas is a villian, and he got what he deserved.

Chromie has been doing a lot of time research on Arthas. it seems like the Infinites wanted to change history so that he would not become the Lich King. That’s something to give you hope at least. I have hope in this too, no Lich King Arthas, no Banshee Sylvanas. But that requires siding with the Inifintes and breaking our timeway.

With a dragon aspect expansion next, it is likely.

I would liken it to what JJ Abrams went through trying to do Rise of Skywalker after The Last Jedi.

You weren’t going to make something that would be universally acclaimed cause the previous person fractured the fanbase and let everything go toxic as they fought over what happened.

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Lich King and Queen. They destroyed Teldrassil… together… with the bell.

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But it is shifting the goal post. From choice vs circumstances to suddenly “aw flux it. Neither matters, Pelagos happened.”

Pelagos isn’t deciding which matters more: he is literally saying neither matter, it’s all irrelevant, neither choices you make nor circumstances in your life matter. You get it no matter what.

Saying Pelagos is a circumstance is about as relevant as saying Pelagos made a choice.

Both are true, sure, but not what we’d been discussing. It’s a shift in goals.

Which isn’t like you.

But eh. If that’s all, then that’s all.

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