Warcraft is on Syfy right now

[Lilus-archimonde]

@Baridorielor-malfurion

I know who you’re replying to, i’m asking where did you get ratings from.

Five words that tied into the transition into that subject:

@Briselody-lightnings-blade

That’s not how Hollywood works

A studio exec wants as many eyes as possible on their film, and while there are still plenty of films that get released with an R rating, the truth is that they just don’t make nearly as much money as other films. Stuff like Deadpool and Joker are the exception rather than the norm.

In many cases if you walk into a pitch meeting and say “Here’s my idea, and here’s why I think it’s best for it to be ‘not for everyone’” you’re going to get told “Thank you, have a nice day.”

[Grimoire-stormrage]

@Lilus-archimonde

A studio exec wants as many eyes as possible on their film

In many cases if you walk into a pitch meeting and say “Here’s my idea, and here’s why I think it’s best for it to be ‘not for everyone’” you’re going to get told “Thank you, have a nice day.”

This person gets it!

Like I said above… They wrote and produced the movie for 1 audience. WoW Players. It would have done MUCH better if they had structured it more for the General Audience who has never played wow and knows nothing about it. This is what Marvel did with their films and why they did so well

[Baridorielor-malfurion (Baridorielor)]

@Grimoire-stormrage

You are not that bright are you?

“Yeah bari, how dare you don’t think about the corporation, but instead of the quality of adapting stuff. What are you? A person who loves geniune art, or good things?” .

I don’t want to come across as dismissive, but it’s alarming (and eye rolling) that a consumer is trying sounding like a businessperson and trying to make me care solely about the business side and want makes money, despite not having any concerning credibility to that.

Like, i’m a consumer. What business i have, be talking about the business side of things, instead of the consumer/fan, side of things?

@Grimoire-stormrage

When making a movie about a game the wider your audience the movie targets, the more people go to see your movie.

If i’m ever put into the position of making a video game adaption, i’m not going to dumb things down or make bizzaro changes to it. I mean, that alone has a built in huge responsibility to the fans here. Like, what do you think they will think about it, as well the casual audience, if i just … “Appeal to everybody just to make money”?..

I mean, imagine if i were given the reins to make an adaption of say… Skyrim, and you suggest to me to make it a Lord of the Rings/Game of Thrones clone because that’s the biggest moneymaker.

@Grimoire-stormrage

Limiting your audience to just the players of the game is stupid and will cause a box office flop. Thats my point.

D… Di-- Did you just pull a Quantium TV on me here?

Did you, unironically imply, that a movie that isn’t made for everybody, isn’t a movie that should be made?..

@Grimoire-stormrage

Warcraft was produced for and targeted just the players of the game.

If it’s targeted for just the players of the game, then they would get the lore right. They would get the characters right. and Etc.

But you seem to think it’s the fault of the adaptation at all, instead of how well they adapted it.

@Grimoire-stormrage

Had it taken a page from Marvels book and market to anyone and everyone it would have done better

You do know the Marvel movies require you to watch other Marvel movies in order to get the lore or story of a lot of the characters, right?

@Lilus-archimonde

Five words that tied into the transition into that subject:

.I mean, i checked back on that comment, and even checked on any prior comment of hers in hopes maybe you were talking about this with her, but… i don’t find anything of Age Ratings. So this just seems completely random to me to suddenly talk about Age Ratings.

[Grimoire-stormrage]

@Baridorielor-malfurion

If i’m ever put into the position of making a video game adaption, i’m not going to dumb things down or make bizzaro changes to it. I mean, that alone has a built in huge responsibility to the fans here. Like, what do you think they will think about it, as well the casual audience, if i just … “Appeal to everybody just to make money”?..

Based on things you have said in this thread and coming from someone who has spent over 25 years working in marketing I am telling you now your adaption would fail and you would never be asked to produce another project adaption. Hell you may be lucky if you didn’t bankrupt the production house involved

[Baridorielor-malfurion (Baridorielor)]

@Grimoire-stormrage

Based on things you have said in this thread and coming from someone who has spent over 25 years working in marketing—

I don’t care about the marketing. I care about making sure the adaption is good. I care about quality of the movie. If less people are going to see it, if i’m going to get less money, so be it.

I, and i think everybody else, should be looking on how to make something good first. Why do think all the IP’s been popular enough to have a movie/tv show adaption? Because they were GOOD. They had care, they had passion. And there’s nothing wrong with putting in the same energy into it’s movies.

[Grimoire-stormrage]

@Baridorielor-malfurion

I care about making sure the adaption is good

Your adaption is good according you “you”. Next top no one went to see your film and now you can never work in Hollywood anytime soon. How did that work out for you? You have to remember you dont decide whats good. Your audience does. 1st rule in marketing is NEVER limit your audience. EVER!

WoW limited their audience on the film that was my ONLY point. Stop arguing other crap. Thats my one and only point nothing else is up for discussion

[Lilus-archimonde]

@Torvald-area-52

So much can be changed while still being a good adaptation. But some things really need to be set in stone. Stormwind falling and the Alliance of Lordaeron forming in response should be one of those things.

And that’s part of the problem with a film adaptation in some cases. We as fans of the franchise know what’s supposed to come next. Joe Blow and your mother don’t. Unless it’s a sequel that generally already has a third act greenlit or a horror film, movies ending on a downer ending are rare for a reason.

Hell, you actually see this in WWE all the time (this might seem odd, but bear with me)

There have been plenty of cases over the years of a big name face such as Austin, The Rock, or CM Punk getting the ever loving crap beat out of them at the end of Raw or Smackdown. For the home viewer, that’s the hook to tune in next time. For the live audience however, that’s really a downer way to end the show, especially if we’re talking a beloved and kid friendly face like Cena.

Typically, if a wrestling promotion ends the televised portion on a beatdown by the heel, you can usually expect the face to turn it around on them after the cameras are off. In some cases, this leads to what is known as a “dark match.” It’s an untelevised match that has no bearing on the canon of any ongoing storylines, and the sole purpose is generally for all the heels to get what is coming to them so that the crowd can leave happy.

Seriously, I’ve been in attendance at shows and seen kids flip out and cry when John Cena is losing badly, and as much as I could never stand him for a ton of different reasons, I understand why promotions do stuff like this. Even if I don’t like the guy, to kids that stuff is all real, and they don’t like to see their hero getting wheeled out on a stretcher to end the night.

Anyway, a first installment of a potential series is generally going to end on a positive or in some cases a bittersweet note (something such as the war was won, but our main hero died), especially if sequels haven’t been greenlit yet. I can see why the Warcraft film ended without Stormwind getting torched. While it would have been a hell of a hook for a sequel, imagine how someone who simply walked into the film because they thought it looked like a cool fantasy epic would feel if the film ended on that and then they heard the sequel was canceled?

You don’t want to do that to an audience. Call it a band aid, call it mishandling, call it unplanned, but the reality is that in many cases you want to send the general audience home happy.

We know what’s coming. They don’t. In the event a sequel had been approved, that would have been instant high stakes for the casual viewer if Warcraft 2 opened with a text crawl that explained it had been X years since the start of the war while we’re seeing the Horde completely tear Stormwind City apart.

[Baridorielor-malfurion (Baridorielor)]

@Grimoire-stormrage

Your adaption is good according you “you”.

Well i’m sorry i don’t think like a soulless corporation like you want me to, and i actually care about quality of something being adapted.

Sorry, but not sorry.

@Grimoire-stormrage

Next top no one went to see your film and now you can never work in Hollywood anytime soon.

Lol, ya think Hollywood is the only place in town? What is this, the 1950’s?

Yeah, it’s not like fans or indie movie studios or etc, has been creating movies without hollywood, and have been big hits with people. /s

@Grimoire-stormrage

Your audience does. NEVER limit your audience. EVER!

If i have to care about getting a lot of money from everybody without caring the quality of the product, i open a casino.

@Grimoire-stormrage

WoW limited their audience on the film that was my ONLY point.

Your point’s premise is flawed, because you assumed that it’s bad to adapt things accurately at all, to make the fans happy (which ironically makes everybody happen over a good quality product). And you only think it’s bad because you’re thinking though that corporate mentality here.

If you’re going to keep on circling on how you clearly want me to think corporately, because you don’t care about art or quality, then there isn’t anything else to discuss with you.

[Grimoire-stormrage]

Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. I am done responding top you. You remind me of tiny companies we would pitch marketing campaigns to and never listened to our advice. They stupidly thought they knew better. Guess what happened every time they failed. A few even had to file Chapter 11s.

@Baridorielor-malfurion

Your point’s premise is flawed, because you assumed that it’s bad to adapt things accurately at all

The film adaption or how accurate that was has NOTHING to do with the marketing of the final product! Are you that dense? This has NOTHING to do with my point or what I was talking about. I have explained 5x and you have yet to once grasp the point I was making you keep rambling about things that have nothing to do with my point because you dont understand it

[Baridorielor-malfurion (Baridorielor)]

@Grimoire-stormrage

Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall.

Mind getting a little less personal here?

Also, agreeing with you is not the same thing as understanding.

@Grimoire-stormrage

I am done responding top you.

“Top you”?

Oh, you mean “to you”.

@Grimoire-stormrage

You remind me of tiny companies we would pitch marketing campaigns to and never listened to our advice.

And you remind me of a shill. “ThInK of a poor corporation and their yauhts! Not their arts!”

Ya know, why you’re sitting here on the forums misses “i have 25 years of marketing?” Seems like a waste of that knowledge and talents sitting here, instead of going around and helping movie people and such if you ask me.

@Grimoire-stormrage

They stupidly thought they knew better. Guess what happened every time they failed. A few even had to file Chapter 11s.

For somebody who claimed to have 25 years of marketing, you sure are angry and bitter when you say that… As if what you’ve said, wasn’t true.

I would tell you to cite stuff, but i guess you having 25 years of marketing, can’t even hold a conversation with somebody and give somebody citations to the things their talking about so… i’m just going to consider this a lie and move on.

@Grimoire-stormrage

The film adaption or how accurate that was has NOTHING to do with the marketing of the final product you idiot.

Tell that to the people who adapted the first Super Mario Bro’s movie.

Heck, it isn’t video games either, but there’s some tv show adaptions that bombed too. And so much more because it wasn’t how the source material is.

For somebody who knows Marketing, you sure are willfully ignorant to the video game movies and other adaptions that failed for not being faithful to the source material. Yet you seem to think that it’s adapting it at all is the problem.

@Grimoire-stormrage

This has NOTHING to do with my point or what I was talking about.

It does. You saying it doesn’t, is you saying that your 1 and only point has no relevance to this topic. And we both know that you think it’s relevant. So why you need to contradict your point exactly?

@Grimoire-stormrage

I have explained 5x and you have yet to once grasp the point I was making

Yes, i get it. You want me to lick the corporate boots and think about how much money they make and praise them solely based on that, instead of concerning myself with art and quality of the movies/games.

Bobby Kotick would love to have you around.

[Grimoire-stormrage]

@Baridorielor-malfurion

Yes, i get it. You want me to lick the corporate boots and think about how much money they make and praise them solely based on that, instead of concerning myself with art and quality of the movies/games.

No you dont. The quality accuracy of the film adaption or how close it stayed to the game has NOTHING to do with my point. Thats a another subject entirely. My point was was the folks behind the production limited their audience. They shouldn’t have. Thats it! Nothing else was ever a discussion. You couldnt have been more clueless to my point. Your rants were soo off topic its not even funny.

Never limit your audience has been my point from the start. You are rambling off about things that have nothing to do with that point. You keep twisting everything I say to go in a differant direction missing the point entirely

[Torvald-area-52]

@Lilus-archimonde

Anyway, a first installment of a potential series is generally going to end on a positive or in some cases a bittersweet note (something such as the war was won, but our main hero died), especially if sequels haven’t been greenlit yet.

There is a natural victory within the story of the first WarCraft for the humans still, which is taking down Medivh. And even with a fall of Stormwind, the last scene doesn’t need to be a downer, it can still be hopeful - Lothar arriving with the refugees to Lordaeron, the formation of the Alliance. Really, the natural end-point of the first movie’s ending should have been the Alliance forming. It’s what they still tried to evoke in that final scene by having the populace shout “For the Alliance!” It just didn’t feel earned at all.

@Lilus-archimonde

You don’t want to do that to an audience. Call it a band aid, call it mishandling, call it unplanned, but the reality is that in many cases you want to send the general audience home happy.

I appreciate the desire to do that, and the wrestling points, but I think you’re dealing with a different rule-set when it comes to established source material rather than original productions. An established fanbase creates positivity around small victories and hypes up what’s coming.

Lord of the Rings has its first end-point with Gandalf seemingly dead, Boromir dying and the Fellowship being shattered. Yeah, they know more movies are greenlit and in production, but they also know that general audiences will often take small victories in the midst of bigger defeats as a saving grace going into the next entry (so even with all the bad, they get to see Aragorn fight his way to Boromir, kill the last remaining orcs, and hear his last words).

To be fair, I don’t think fixing this would have given it a sequel. I think it hurt the soil for future sequel writing, but probably what killed the sequel was all the other problems. The dullness and aimlessness of the human half of the movie just felt awful. It’s really a very weird thing that the CGI orcs felt more developed and like real characters than actual humans.

Anyhow, I gotta jump off. I’ve enjoyed talking with you though. You make good points.

[Baridorielor-malfurion (Baridorielor)]

@Grimoire-stormrage

No you dont.

I thought you’re done responding?..

@Grimoire-stormrage

I am done responding top you.

Well while you’re here, mind citing a lot of the stuff you’ve said or… what?

@Grimoire-stormrage

The quality accuracy of the film adaption or how close it stayed to the game has NOTHING to do with my point.

Yes it does, because you’re simply saying here that the adaption needs to lose a lot of it’s elements, in order to get more people. Again, refer to my Dark Souls example on why you’re wrong.

@Grimoire-stormrage

My point was was the folks behind the production limited their audience.

…And few seconds later, you just outright confirmed what i’m talking about here. Like, you’re basicly implying that being accurate will limit people here.

If this is not what you’ve said, then that’s on you for poorly explaining that point.

@Grimoire-stormrage

Nothing else was ever a discussion.

Who the heck are you to decide what, and what to discuss on? Your “25 years of marketing” is questionable to say the least if you’re going to ignore examples of (Tv show, Movies, video games, etc) adaptations that failed because it’s not exactly like the source material.

What, do you think Dragonball Evolution is a good film because “it didn’t limited it’s audience”, or however you wish to word it here? Ya think Jem and the Holograms is great because it didn’t “limit it’s audience”? Or DOOM? Do you know how many comic book movies that failed?..

I don’t think this is a field you truly understand if you’re just going to blatantly ignore all this. Or just ignore how stupid the idea of “Not limiting your audience” is in general with… Anything actually. Like imagine if this was said about your favorite game, movie, or etc.

@Grimoire-stormrage

Your rants were soo off topic its not even funny.

Nice character attack. Mind getting back to the topic, or is this gonna turn into another episode of “Everybody loves Bari”?

[Lilus-archimonde]

@Grimoire-stormrage

Like I said above… They wrote and produced the movie for 1 audience. WoW Players. It would have done MUCH better if they had structured it more for the General Audience who has never played wow and knows nothing about it. This is what Marvel did with their films and why they did so well

Agree to disagree?

I don’t think they completely went all in on just the Warcraft fans. My buddy’s mom went to see the film, she understood everything just fine, and while the film had nods and references for the fans, there seemed to be no continuity lockout for her.

Warcraft Official Trailer #1 (2016) - Travis Fimmel, Dominic Cooper Movie HD

There’s nothing in that trailer that screams “I’M A VIDEO GAME MOVIE!” The closest we get to that is the Blizzard logo, and even then you’d have to be aware that Blizzard is a game company first. A casual viewer might just see the logo and think “Oh, who’s this new production company?”

I feel the film had two big things going against it.

• It wasn’t World of Warcraft (AKA the Arthas problem):

I don’t need to say much more there, do I?
For as long as the series has gone on, much of the modern fans come from WoW and to a lesser degree Warcraft 3. Just look at this topic and the one I posted last year. Even in the lead up to it being released in 2016, I was seeing a fair amount of “I’d go see it, but Arthas isn’t in it” or “I’d like to see it, but it’s based on Warcraft 1.”

When me and my buddy went on opening night, we had a group seated near us that were wearing Horde shirts, but they were completely lost. At one point, I actually overheard them wondering when we’d see Thrall, Vol’jin, and Sylvanas. We actually had to explain to them that this was a film based on Warcraft 1, not WoW.

They actually got up and walked out on the film once they were told that.

This is that continuity lockout some of us keep going back and forth on. You have the fans more familiar with the later games wanting to see the characters they know, but that would entail skipping 20-25 years of in universe lore to get there. Sure, you please that small group in the short term, but at that point you’ve now lost the general audience that isn’t going to know the Horde, the Alliance, the Scourge, the Legion, the Old Gods, etc.

Honestly, IMO it wasn’t the fact that they went too heavy into the fanbase. It was the fact that they were marketing a Warcraft film to fans of WoW and only WoW.

The other issue:

• The 2000s and 2010s were very fantasy heavy (AKA Lord of the Rings fatigue)

Ever since LotR showed that there was a market for fantasy epics, everyone wanted a piece of that pie. Harry Potter, Narnia, and Percy Jackson all got adaptations (only one of those being successful). In no particular order you had a remake of the classic fantasy film Clash of the Titans, another film based on Greek myth named Immortals, TWO new versions of Hercules in 2014 (one of them with The Rock), a remake of Conan, Prince of Persia/Assassin’s Creed (which both doubled as game films), Snow White and the Huntsman (plus a sequel), and a new King Arthur.

Oh, and in the middle of all of that, you also had Game of Thrones on TV, and a return to Middle Earth once they started The Hobbit.

Is it any wonder that many of the films in this time period really started to underperform, mainly due to the misconception among casual audiences that they were all Lord of the Rings clones in some manner?

Granted, quite a few of these were different enough, and some had their own issues in the cases of adaptations, but the casual moviegoer was getting pretty tired of fantasy epics by the middle of the 2010s. How do you think Warcraft was going to look to such a person?

On the surface, it would be nothing more than a blatant LotR rip off.

TLDR version: wrong film, wrong audience, wrong time.

[Lilus-archimonde]

@Grimoire-stormrage

The film adaption or how accurate that was has NOTHING to do with the marketing of the final product! Are you that dense

Unfortunately, many of these folks are indeed that dense.

This is why you can’t explain to many of them why going straight to Arthas in a mass market big budget Hollywood production is a poor choice.

[Cäpslöck-proudmoore]

It’s a decent movie, but I found that it kind of relied on the viewer to have a basic understanding of the warcraft 1 story going in.

[Baridorielor-malfurion (Baridorielor)]

@Lilus-archimonde

Unfortunately, many of these folks are indeed that dense.

I’m not going to think about the business side of things, because that’s literally, none of my business. And quite frankly, no consumer should imo. They should only be concerned by “Is this good, or bad?”…

Regardless of the costs, regardless of the business, speaking STRICTLY as a consumer (because that’s what we all are, if were in the business, we wouldn’t be sitting here, Armchairing Businessperson other people) i would see myself interested in seeing the Artha’s Story, even if it’s 2 parts or such. And i would recommended if the adaptation is done excellently by somebody who cares about art. And not just how much Money it makes.

Like, imagine if my attitude is like Grimoire’s, I wouldn’t even be fan of anything because they “limited their audiences”. I wouldn’t even be here. Heck, Nobody would if that’s the prevailing attitude. WoW wouldn’t even be a thing.

[Grimoire-stormrage]

@Baridorielor-malfurion

I’m not going to think about the business side of things

This is what many of our points were relating to though. The actual marketing of the final product. You kep rambling about other things. When you could have just said. “I cant talk about marketing because I know nothing about that. I just dont think the overall film was a good adaption of the game.”

No one would have ever argued with that

[Baridorielor-malfurion (Baridorielor)]

@Grimoire-stormrage

This is what many of our points were relating to though.

Well i’m sorry, but… I’m the consumer.
The customer.
The Gamer.

The Business stuff is none of my concern and it shouldn’t.

@Grimoire-stormrage

When you could have just said. “I cant talk about marketing because I know nothing about that. I just dont think the overall film was a good adaption of the game.”

No one would have ever argued with that

Except, i’ve said and even implied that. And you’ve literally argued against that. You even called me wanting the adaption to be good over getting the most amount of money as “limiting the audience”, and tell me it’s going to flop if it’s accurate or good, instead of “listening” to what makes money.

If it’s NOT what you’ve said, then tell me, what are you saying then? Because it just sounds like to me, you’re concerned with money. Am i wrong for thinking that’s your concern? Because, realistically, i don’t see any other concern a person with 25 years of marketing would have other then that.

You talk about “never EVER limiting your audience” and yet, you don’t want me to think, you’re thinking about solely the money here?.. What?

[Grimoire-stormrage]

@Baridorielor-malfurion

Except, i’ve said that, and you’ve literally agrued with that. You even called me wanting the adaption to be good as “limiting the audience”.

Look let me explain how marketing of a Film or ANY product works ok? A company makes a film. Lets say its a film called “Dogo” about a dog from a Childrens book series called Dogo. When are happy with the final cut of the film they call it a “lock” and make no further changes. They then reach out to a Marketing Company to market their product. It is the company’s job to get the marketing company to understand the film and the target audience they want them to market.

My point from the get go is they did that poorly and limited their audience. Yet you kept going on and on about the writing the film adaption ect ect. Which had nothing to do with my point. My point always referred to the marketing of the final product