She was the Warchief at the time. The Horde itself was doing Sylvanas plot things… even Saurfang for a time… so not sure what your point is. As if the Sylvanas plot did not touch the Horde story one bit…
Sure - but what is being asked for is a one sided Horde bashing by Night Elves because they want to dunk on the Horde for pay back.
If we are going to war with each other , let’s have at it. But having the Night Elves gnaw at some old Horde divisions in Alliance only quests, without answer from the Horde, is detrimental to the lore, imo.
The Forsaken reclamation of Lordaeron was generally well received. The Alliance actually helped the Forsaken, with Genn.
What do you know? A lore heavy quest where both Factions participated, without either side being mistreated for their past grievances. And it was roundly well received.
You do not have to kick one side to prop up your side.
To be fair, at this point Sylvanas loyalists, especially if decrying the Horde council as I suggested earlier, wouldn’t really be Horde any more than the Venture Company are or the Blackfuse Goblins that followed Garrosh to Draenor.
It was Tyrande’s sentencing. The Arbiter asked if any objected, and none did.
And that is not even the whole of her punishment - clearing out the maw is just the beginning. If she ever finishes that, she might have more chores to do.
The rabid Night Elf fans do not know the meaning of “enough.” They could have a whole zone where everyone saves only specifically night elf souls, and they still want more.
True but that doesn’t make San’layn “Horde Lore”. At least not imo. To me they will always be Scourge Lore who only had a rather brief guest appearance for the purpose of Alliance questing material.
To be honest I’m glad Horde questing never saw them.
Yeah I’ve seen people asking for similar nonsense before.
Here’s a resounding “No”.
Give the night elves their special new tree wherever it might be located.
Then don’t develop anything for them.
At least not for a good long while. They’ve had development attention for far too long.
The Horde dealt with the Loyalist rift at the end of BfA. It was kind of touching. The Horde big wigs made it a point to say we are all Horde again. All over the place - even at the bank.
But Alliance Posters want to pick apart pieces of the Horde to beat on, in their unquenchable power fantasy, without the rest of the Horde answering.
I for one would defend the Troll mages and shaman who helped burn the tree. They get specific shout outs, and are worthy of esteem. I am just jealous it wasn’t Blood Elf Warlocks using their fire to get the catapults going. Then I could half way RP as one. But I guess Lorash was the stand in for all angsty Blood Elves.
You think it would be better for the Alliance to dunk on the Horde in content that we have to play through?
The upthread posters explicitly stated that they’d only be happy if there was no “answer from the Horde.” In order for them to be satisfied, there can be no strings, no blowback, just an unmitigated show of power from the Night Elves.
Should I be pointing and laughing at Horde posters that ask for no more Night Elf content but will keep being stuck playing through it since Blizzard keeps stretching it out with downsides ad nauseam?
Lore wise, I doubt the Horde leadership would have any sympathy for Sylvanas loyalists who still haven’t repented after all these years. I doubt the ones that were rounded up at Orgrimmar and who Liadrin and Geya’rah were hunting down were pardoned if they didn’t claim to have given up loyalty to Sylvanas.
Take Stormheim for example - the Alliance surprise attacks the Horde, and Sylvanas is stopped in her quest by Genn. At least we as Horde are there on the ground - and for people who were still bitter about the Alliance’s assault on the Warchief (like me) we got to see that transgression brought up in A Good War.
The attack at Stormheim isn’t something we Horde Players just heard about from Alliance Players. Both sides were involved. And we could carry that with us as the Horde answered - with the War of Thorns.
Even then, at least both Factions participated in the War of Thorns. It would have been worse if it was a Horde only quest, and Alliance Players only got to see the aftermath. Alliance Players still talk about at least having a chance to save some civilians.
I think it is better to be involved than to just hear about being pwnt as part of the story.
As an example- Night Elf fans want to kill a few mages and shaman who might have been involved in the burning. They just want a free hand in killing Horde.
How about a matching Horde side quest where we find out the Night Elves killed some innocent Mages and Shaman who were not even involved, so we go collecting Night Elf heads for justice. And we even save some Mages and Shaman from the dastardly Night Elf marauders.
Sure if you want, but I don’t know why you would. Nelf content since BfA seems to have been pretty ill received by nelf fans. I would think you’d all want them to quit trying.
…hey, do you remember Yrel? When they announced Warlords of Draenor, people on both factions were getting a bit…sick of orcs. Not so much because of lore issues, but just because they were all the game seemed to be focused on. There was a great graphic I saw around that time where it had Cataclysm (with a picture of Thrall being the Earth Warder), Mists of Pandaria (with Garrosh and the Siege of Orgrimmar), and then Warlords of Draenor with…y’know, orcs.
This isn’t just a player-base issue. I remember reading the actual developers/writers/artists had something called ‘orc fatigue’. I’m sure people with better Google skills than I can locate that.
Anyway, one of the things I remember was Blizzard announcing Yrel was going to be a major, important character. Which is especially important if you have an entire expansion sold as kind of propping up and revisiting orcish leaders of the past, set during the time when the orcs (under demon blood) did that whole genocide thing before trying to wipe out Azeroth. The presence of a strong draenei character needed to happen so it didn’t feel like writers were kind of just rubbing it in the face of half of the fan base.
With Yrel, I distinctly remember them saying ‘Like a Joan of Arc’ kind of character. I had some trepidations, but I have to admit I was pleasantly surprised with how she played out. She went from someone unsure of herself in the beginning (that scene where you bolster her confidence and escape from Shaz’gul still gives me goosebumps), to a competent, confident leader of her people.
And they managed to do it without losing her humanity. She was still the same mischievous person who owed that merchant six copper. Thaelin found that out when he tried to prank Yrel, and got pranked right back.
Seriously, that scene at the end of the Talador storyline. “Just you.” I was like “Okay…okay, I see you.”
Of course, at the end of Hellfire Citadel, she ended up having to share the victory with the person who started the actual genocide against her people, listening to him talk about how Draenor is free (of the things he did to it). But, you know. Grom is a hero (for some reason) in the Main Universe, so I can see why they may want him to not come off as a major villain in the Draenor Universe, too.
But, yeah. Yrel had an extremely satisfying arc.
It’s not like anything else happened after that. It’s not like they continued her story in a Horde-only questline to recruit a Horde allied race by turning her from a noble hero into some kind of Scarlet Crusade level fanatic, for ‘reasons’ that make zero sense and happened entirely off-screen with no warning and completely undermine the entire Alliance reason for taking part in that expansion. It’s not like the only way you even know about this is if you complete the HORDE war campaign to get a HORDE race.
Because that would be silly, especially since none of the Alliance allied race unlocks involved Horde heroes, as far as I know. I didn’t unlock Vanaelia by finding out Huln Highmountain had suddenly started with his cravings for baby stew.
…right.
The game always has - and always will have - stuff about one faction that the other faction doesn’t see. I’m fine with that. I would even argue that’s necessary in a game centered around two factions in conflict. The differences in scenes between the Legion openings? That’s an example, I think, of that being handled well. Neither side has the whole story, so both think they’re right by their own perspective. That’s a cornerstone of good narrative, in my eyes.
But there’s a difference in scale. That san’layn that was introduced for that expansion that was killed off in the campaign? That’s fine. That doesn’t effect the overall narrative for either side. Sylvanas is willing to let more undead into the Horde? That’s not new. She did that with the - sigh - fallen wardens at Darkshore. That’s side quest stuff.
This is main quest stuff, though. This is the game making as one of the major selling/marketing points of the franchise something horrible happening to one race of one faction, and there not really being any kind of satisfactory pay off.
This is Siege of Orgrimmar again but dumber. Players aren’t canonically from Theramore, but night elves are from Teldrassil. The suggestions being put forth seem to be a concession between not rubbing it in the faces of the Horde players (you did this bad thing and should feel bad) and not rubbing it in the faces of the Alliance players (your side is expendable and your losses are narrative points).
I don’t think that’s asking too much, especially given that the Horde got to choose between siding with Saurfang or Sylvanas…something that happened, if memory serves, after a massive outcry from the Horde playerbase.
Your cute little rant falls on its face when you realize that Yrel is not in the Alliance or an agent of the Alliance in that Maghar quest.
Whereas the notion of Night Elves attacking Horde members is what they want.
Big difference. Which I am sure you glossed over in your zeal.
Yrel is not acting as an agent of the Alliance in that scenario.
Night Elf fans specifically want to kill Horde members for being Horde members.
Not only that , but even in this Horde only Maghar scenario it is not depicted as black and white - we are shown Yrel’s perspective. There are two sides expressed. Even in your example, there is space given for the other perspective to possibly be true.
As opposed to what Night Elf fans want… wanton Horde massacre, with no reply.
No, I’m not part of the crowd that posts that they’d rather Blizzard not write the Night Elves any more. I want Blizzard to give writing downsides for the Night Elves break if even just for a moment, but the only reason I didn’t unsub after doing the initial Kul Tiras content in BfA that didn’t do anything for me was because I enjoyed the Darkshore Warfront, even with all its flaws. Things don’t have to be perfect for them to be enjoyable. They just have to not be bad. Ultimately Alliance players got Undead Night Elf skins, so that for me mitigates some of the Night Elves being raised in undeath in a scripted event (bonus that we got Dark Ranger Void Elves, too).
I don’t expect this new world tree content will be without flaws, and I am even assuming Blizzard will add some sort of downside just to hold the bar so low that Blizzard has a chance to beat expectations for once, but I am looking forward to seeing it, and it might even get me to play Dragonflight content, which I haven’t touched at all yet, just spending a few weeks each month to do Traveler’s Log stuff and pick up a few more Shadowlands and Mechagon collectables here and there.
Though I also get to look forward to leveling a new Night Elf Demonology Warlock at least to 60, too, which is nice.
This is a bad faith argument, and I suspect you know that.
I get where you are coming from. The writing decisions of the game are putting Horde players in a very uncomfortable position. I feel this, too; it gets harder to log on to Horde characters knowing what they want me to do. I have long advocated - and by all means, feel free to check my post history - for Blizzard to stop doing that. It lessens things for everyone. I hate that it’s making people who have invested time in their characters and the story feel like they have to be monsters when they want to play their game.
But the suggestion was not ‘a few mages and shaman who might have been involved’. The suggestion was ‘to find the specific mages and shaman who were directly responsible for the worst of it, and unrepentant about it’.
‘It’ being genocide. This isn’t some skirmish or fog of war scenario. This is a war crime. And it involves giving the victims of this war crime at least some sense of addressing it. This is being done because Alliance players do not get to see Sylvanas loyalists in chains, or anything.
You know what the Alliance experience is? I just did War Mode on Vanaelia (which is…long). With the Alliance leaders lined up, Anduin tells you he thinks Tyrande might be being consumed by vengeance.
After that scene in the front gates of Orgrimmar? Anduin goes in and calls Saurfang a hero. Then everyone goes home.
There is no mention of anything happening to the people who were pro-Sylvanas on Horde side. At least with Siege of Orgrimmar, it was kind of established that everyone was against Garrosh. There was a recognition that he went waaaaay too far.
But this? Nope. Done. Saurfang’s dead, Sylvanas poofed away, and no punishment for the folk who actually were siding with someone after genocide.
As for your idea of a matching Horde side quest, I suppose I have to ask you if you accept that Sylvanas’ actions at the Burning of Teldrassil were wrong. I am operating under the premise that we all agree that that action was unequivocally, unilaterally wrong. Most of the people upset are upset - I thought - because the game was making them do something they knew was wrong.
Horde players are upset - and rightly so - that they keep being forced to wield the villain bat. The way to address this is not to create a quest where the Horde starts collecting heads. I would not feel good if I had to kill a bunch of night elves (something I already feel crummy that the game made me do), and I found out the reason I’m killing them is because they were trying to target the people directly responsible for committing genocide against them.
I do not see that making anyone feel better. If anything, it would make it feel like the writers were trying to make me feel like a monster again.
“Good job, soldier! These night elves came here to avenge their fallen, but they picked the wrong people twice. First, they picked the wrong targets; and second, they picked a day when you, a proud champion of the Horde, were ready to end them!”
You are arguing that Yrel - the draenei character that was introduced for the Alliance starting experience and leveling experience and spent time with the Alliance forces and was a major part of the Alliance bases…was not an agent of the Alliance.
Shrugs Okay. But then why are you also stating that those san’layn in the war campaign had anything to do with Horde lore? They weren’t in the Horde. I just did the War Campaign.
And if we’re going to do this, why are you assuming that the mages and shaman being killed by the night elves would be part of the Horde, either? Both the Alliance and Horde have used mercenaries.
If you want to do this, would you have been fine if all of the Warlords of Draenor had just been immediately run over by the opposing forces? Even the Frostwolves? Because they weren’t actually in the Horde at that time.
In any event, there is a difference between wanton massacre, and punishing the people directly involved with a war crime. The suggestions being put forth are the latter.
You want to play on the Horde side through a scenario in which the Night Elves gain what Amadis, Aviala, and Vanaelia are asking for? I’ll quote the exact terms they are demanding:
You really want to be the mooks they get to mow down effortlessly? That sounds like fun to you?
In case I haven’t stated this strongly enough: I utterly and completely reject this premise. I also think this attitude is dangerous because it leads to “You owe me your suffering in order to make me happy.”
No, course not. I flatly reject their specific unfair suggestions. I would not consider them.
I am saying there is a fair way to go about having the Factions face off. Instead of Night Elves killing Horde and the Horde standing around.
Like I suggested - instead of the Night Elves just killing Horde, maybe the Horde helps save some of the Mages and Shaman who are targeted, and we also kill some of the Night Elves who killed innocent mages and shaman.
That would make the Horde right to defend itself, instead of just a punching bag taking hits to please Alliance Players.
If the Night Elves get a quest where they get revenge, Hordies fight them every step, and rescue some of their victims, even if we can’t save all.
And I suggest they should not be harmed, they should be defended, if they started being killed, the Horde should protect them. If the Alliance starts picking and choosing vendettas, the Horde can, too.
If the Night Elves are killing Horde members, it would be self defense.
Actually that sounds fine to me. Like something someone might actually say in game.
Yes, you are suggesting what you want to make you happy, and I say it is disgusting and makes a bigger joke of the Horde, so it would need tuning to be palatable.
The Horde letting Night Elves kill people in their ranks has not been laid out as part of the armistice. It would be awful if the Horde just let the Night Elves pick off its personnel as they see fit, without answer.