Glad we can agree that tools already exist, therefore we do not need leaver penalties. Vet your group if it’s a concern.
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Its really not complicated at all. There should be zero punishment for leaving a key
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Bad doesn’t equal trolling. I feel it’s far more common for ego to get in the way than players not being good enough to do a basic PVE mechanic.
and I don’t care… they should be incurring a penalty for leaving.
You leave an LFR/RDF there is a 30 minute lockout and you lose nothing… leave a BG, you got a 15-minute lockout and you lose nothing, but something where people are now forced to lower a key because someone left… an hour or so lockout is too much to ask, eh?
Never stated they didn’t… but using an uncommon occurrence as examples, doesn’t really add much to the argument. If they leave, penalties should incur, nothing crazy… but a nice lockout that scales with times done.
You’ve deflected away from the original statement that led me to say you were blaming the victim. Here is that exchange:
You make the assessment that getting a group that’s unprepared has to be the result of not using the tools available to vet the group. You left no room for the player that did use the research yet still wound up with a potato for a group, despite you even admitting yourself that groups can fail even when all members having impressive IO metrics.
Or to put another way, you’re saying it’s my fault that I wound up with a potato for a group; how would you describe that if not victim blaming?
Not to whatever third party would have to try to adjudicate reports.
If there is a penalty applied for leaving a group early, it will be a valid strategy for players who no longer want to be in a group to start intentionally playing poorly in order to make at least one other player’s experience so much worse they leave first. Yes, you could report that player for gameplay sabotage, but that is a two way street. If the reason that player wants to leave is because someone else in their group is performing badly, they could just as easily report that player for gameplay sabotage.
The system intended to handle those reports will have ZERO INFORMATION on the intent of the player who was reported. There will be no way to determine whether the player was sabotaging or simply bad. So any punishment that you expect to be doled out to the player who is sabotaging the group in order to get someone else to leave will also wind up being applied to the bad players that sometimes will lead to them wanting to leave in the first place.
Does this honestly sound like a better system to you than we have today?
If the lockout is short enough to truly feel like no big deal, it’s unlikely to stop players from leaving. The only players that will be punished are those that are unaware of the penalty or have a legitimate reason to leave.
If the lockout is long enough to curb players from leaving, it means players have an incentive to make their group’s experience worse to get someone else to leave first. If I’m successful in making my group’s experience bad enough that somebody leaves within the period where I would be serving the penalty, I come out ahead on my time commitment to that group. It’s better for me to do that if I’m just thinking of my own interests than for me to stick around to help the group finish.
And that is to say nothing of the new trolling and toxicity avenues this creates. Players can join groups solely with the purpose of making their group’s lives a living hell, knowing that those players can’t get away without incurring an hour penalty. Whereas today if someone does that, I can simply leave the group.
To make something clear, I am not opposed to a penalty because I am opposed to punishing trolls. If someone leaves a group that is still on track to achieve its goals and someone bounces, I would be fully in favor of a punishment.
I just recognize that it’s not possible to determine the reason why anyone leaves a group. And to attempt to punish trolls, a fair number of innocent players will get caught in the crossfire. Then to make matters worse, the number of innocent players would also increase because a new environment for trolling will be opened up by these systems. M+ will function far worse for protecting the regular player’s ability to enjoy themselves than how the current system functions.
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why should decent players be punished and held hostage on a run that should take 20 mins, max, and the run is already time elapsed 25-30-40+mins when the group is not crowd controlling mobs with roots, stuns, slows and interupts, and there are multiple wipes and unnecessary deaths?
/tables turned
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Because it’s qued content.
Because it’s qued content.
Yes. Any lockout is too much to ask because you formed the group. You invited that person. You chose to take the risk.
People normally don’t leave good keys so something happened to cause them to leave.
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The problem of people leaving content was already solved in FF14. If you are the first to leave you get a 30 min defuff where you can’t go back in and do other content. However there is a feature to vote abandon the content, any one can start a vote to abandon and if a majority of people agree to abandon the dungeon or raid ends and nobody gets a leaver penalty.
It’s not an actual problem nor does it need fixing.
Your suggestion is a terrible and will lead to more issues.
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Being forced to play does not create an enjoyable experience for anyone involved (unless if you count schadenfreude.)
It only exists in matchmade content due to history.
Where people would want to be votekicked so they aren’t there.
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Not a single suggestion by the punishment crowd has been proven better than the current system.
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My understanding of your position is that: You’re saying a hypothetical group-- one of a conniving caliber I have never encountered in my 20 years of playing WoW-- somehow tricked you into carrying them, and because ANY suggested penalty would make you feel forced into “carrying” that means nothing should be done about the current state of things.
Humoring the scenario, I pointed out several tools already at your disposal to avoid this, to which you replied that you didn’t want to have to look everyone up that you play with-- Something I already do-- and, as such, if you choose not to use an existing tool that would otherwise correct the situation, you are only a “victim” of your own making.
Comment is in reply to a specific concern regarding the inability to (slightly oversimplifying for brevity) see the score of teammates when you choose to join someone else’s group…
RaiderIO/warcraftlogs = good for that.
Very different from the implication you make here in follow-up.
That was one example for why I think a penalty would be bad. That’s far from my entire position on the subject. Even a single person that’s unqualified that leads to the experience being worse within a system that I cannot leave is a downgrade over what we have today.
The point that I was making is that it’s an absurd position to lay the blame on player 1 when some combination of players 2 through 5 aren’t holding up their end of the bargain. Even if player 1 didn’t use the tools available to them to reduce the chance of this happening, putting the culpability onto them rather than those who are actually doing the things to make the experience worse is victim blaming.
The only reason I mentioned a 3 stack is working off the assumption that there would be a way for groups to vote to disband the group without penalty. If one player is essentially trolling a group of 5 PUGs many times the majority would vote in favor of disbanding. But if the players who want to be carried are the majority, they likely wouldn’t vote to disband.
I have said no such things, you just think it makes your argument stronger to claim I did. I’ve said that I shouldn’t have to, especially if I’m not putting the group together in the first place.
And let’s not forget that you even acknowledged that using the tools isn’t foolproof either; I can still wind up with a potato group even when I use the tools.
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I’m reading your reply now, and I still think I summarized your entire position correctly, based on the following…
You’re carrying a hypothetical group that maliciously took advantage of you…
“player 1” chooses to blindfold himself and is then upset that he’s gone into the run blind. No, that’s not victim blaming.
I have never encountered-- or even heard 2nd hand-- the hostage situation you are talking about.
You claim I am straw-manning your position, and then (Unless I am REALLY misunderstanding) you immediately reiterate the position you claim I am straw-manning. 
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-runs/season-df-4/9949270-15-halls-of-infusion
I was ready to accept the run being over when we wiped, last night, but the mage (3300 rated) said he wanted to finish. The tank was already hearthing, but stopped, and jumped right back into position. No one complained. The run was not +score for anyone. No one got usable gear. No one in group was a “potato.”
Was no mistake in the formation of the group. You can still miss the timer even with a good group… Game wouldn’t be fun if you won every time. 
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What do you expect blizz to do about it. If they implement a leaver penalty what’s to stop a player from just afking at the entrance or trolling the group so it becomes a mutual disband anyways.
They clearly know m+ leavers are an issue, but realistically it’s probably a lot harder than we all think to implement a system that won’t be abused anyways.
Then there’s the reverse side of it, if someone is in there that’s clearly awful and incapable of doing the key, why should they hold you hostage into wasting your time carrying them. If someone dies to the same boss mechanic 3-4x in a row why should I have to stay until they figure it out?
Ultimately there’s not really a fair system to stop this
Malice is not required in this case.
And in the cases where a player with good IO plays poorly?
Because it can’t happen today. It can with the system you’re proposing. Surely after this many posts this can’t be a serious question…
Where did I say you were straw manning? You are trying to misuse that term that I not once even so much as implied toward your argument. You’re really scraping the bottom of the barrel here.
There are plenty of groups where everyone has similar goals including whether or not to continue for completion if a few mistakes leads to being unable to time it. I have stories of that as well. In these groups, there isn’t a problem with random leavers and everyone will understand if one or more people call it quits after and trouble. I have made absolutely no such assertion to the contrary.
However, having examples where everyone can pull their own weight but a couple things went sideways does not mean there aren’t other groups where one or more players aren’t pulling their own weight. And in those groups, players should be able to bail when it’s clear they will have to pick up someone else’s slack. That’s true whether they did full research into every other team member or not. It’s true whether the player was trying to get unsuspecting players to carry them. It’s true whether the underperformer is playing to their capability or just had a bad key.
But you’d seemingly rather me have to face either picking up that slack or incur whatever the penalty would be. I’m supposed to be a team player, but the player who isn’t pulling their weight can be as selfish as they want.
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You’ve never heard of a situation happening which the current game prevents from happening? Shocker.
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Imagine if they hired actual people instead of a machine, they might actually make this WOW community, “likeable” as crazy as that sounds.
That’s why I stated in from the start it’s a gradually increasing penalty, 1 hour up to 24. Should linger on the account for 12 months and that time should reset back to 12-months for every leave.
and with the hope of them learning to act like adults… because there parents and schools failed them in that.
and that should come with LONG suspensions… if these people can’t act like adults, they shouldn’t be allowed to play, the lack of maturity in this game and gaming in-general is just too common.
Hahaha let’s go! This is why I always say Wow IS just like real life. Never mind that some people on wow are actual children, never mind that most people online cannot act like adults on wow or otherwise, never mind the cases where someone who actually has an emergency and needs to leave a key, just burn em all to the ground.
I can’t say I hate the passion though. What do the kids say these days… it’s very sigma of you.
You’re a perfect example of this, acting like emergencies happen every day… 
Yikes, the cringe.
I mean… statistically speaking… they kind of do. The odds of them happening in all keys run is pretty low, but there are sure to be some.