Something is assumption until it happens… I doubt the reasoning is the same as y’all like to claim it is.
I rather people grow up and just play the game, leave their egos at home and stop acting like they’re something special.
If you are intentionally choosing to avoid using a tool that would correct the situation, the word for such a person is not “victim.”
I would be all for a method/tool to keep track of how many keys a given player abandons, if that’s what you mean.
Failure is still a possibility under optimal conditions, yes. That’s perfectly normal.
What you list are minor details. There is just ONE “major difference:” Those you play with are owed nothing; if you choose to leave, you only hurt yourself.
Expanding on that thought, your rating is hit as HARD as the game is allowed to hit you, while awarding every other player accordingly.
I would not weigh the value of those responses as I don’t know their worth. However, I can tell you that, irl historically, even minor deterrents will change people’s habits, and in this case, I am for it.
But is it a positive impact or negative?
For League of Legends, it’s largely negative.
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It is been like that for 8 years, no surprise here.
First, there is no way you can possibly know what percentage of people leave for a particular reason. You’re the one making the big assumption here.
Second, nothing in anything I’ve posted has said or implied there aren’t players that leave simply because they can. There certainly are. But in attempting to address those situations, there will be other groups of players who might have other reasons for leaving that will also be negatively impacted. It’s that collateral damage I’m concerned with.
If it’s obvious I’m trolling when I decide I no longer want to be part of a group, what must that mean about the players who play poorly in the key independent of a desire to leave? The hunter and mage that died on the upheaval on 3 different pulls of the last boss of Nokhud I had earlier this week ultimately causing the key to not even complete were trolling and I should have reported them?
You can’t prove how many instances of people leaving are doing so for reasons of their group not living up to their expectations. I had a key fall apart earlier this week because of one such instance. Anecdotal, sure; but it’s no less reliable than whatever experience you’re drawing from.
Yea, I’m not sure why they dont do the deserter debuff like they do with Dungeon Finder, tbh…
So someone who gets mugged on their way home from work isn’t a victim unless they were carrying a weapon? The tool exists for them to potentially avoid being mugged…
What I was saying is that you only want punishments applied to the players who leave keys, not for the player who put the group together. If we follow the logic you’re putting forward about players leaving not leveraging the tools available to them to mitigate the possibility of bad groups, the group leader has to be at least as culpable, if not more so.
Which ultimately means players choosing to leave may be the result of something other than not using the tools…
The fact that I know a solo shuffle game is going to end after X minutes nearly 100% of the time compared to a key where the dungeon enemies will happily keep wiping us until the heat death of the universe is a minor detail?
The same thing goes for underperforming players in keys. They are not owed my time, yet that’s exactly what you are suggesting.
They sure can. And I think the biggest change would be far fewer player even attempting to PUG keys because there is no practical way for a player to estimate how long a key might take if they can wind up trapped in a bad group incapable of completing the key.
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This is so far removed from anything relevant here…
I’m thinking we’re on VERY different wave lengths. lol
No-- you say a LOT about who you are in those two sentences-- you REALLY don’t get it at all. In m+ you agreed to join that specific team YOU ARE PART OF THAT TEAM.
I get your brand of “logic” though; you’re in it for you.
Yes, I did. And if you played with me, I think you’ll find I’m far more patient in keys than a lot of PUGs you’ll encounter. You can probably count on one hand the number of times I left a key first.
But that doesn’t mean I should appreciate having my time wasted by someone unqualified for difficulty we’re doing. I’ll help someone with mechanics in the key if they aren’t familiar, but I simply cannot be expected to try to train a player mid-key to perform adequately for the content we’re doing. The current system does not demand this of me, while the proposed system would.
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Because the dungeon finder is qued content. Keys are not.
There shouldn’t be a penalty that forces people to stay in a trash group.
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And part of that team is to pull your weight.
When someone else isn’t pulling their own weight they are a carry.
I don’t carry people for free.
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Blizzard justifies allowing players to leave keys because of the rare occurrence where a group is unable to complete the dungeon that they signed up for. More often than not, players want to meet a timed criteria. At the sign of the first wipe or an accidental pull, some players bail. The group oftentimes is still actually able to meet the timer that the leaver signed up for. So, the bailer was unjustified for leaving. Players who are required to rely on others for clearing content are often let down by this system as a result. It’s a bad design.
They should either separate dungeons into two categories. One being that the dungeon will be cleared within the timer. The other is where a specific time is met. These two different modes should also be reflected in the group finder system for recruitment.
Blizzard always seems to err on the wrong side of things. They do nothing to prevent toxicity because the systems that they implement could be abused by players. However, the game is being abused by players as op has mentioned and Blizzard does nothing about it.
What’s better? That 4 players’ time is saved in the future with a report system that deters bailers from prematurely leaving? Or that one toxic individual gets away with wasting 4 players time?
This game needs a report system for premature bailers. This game has an incredibly toxic community. That’s one of the reasons that I don’t play it.
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its not always true, some groups find synergy after or shortly before first boss,
I know because I always stay till key owner stays
I had once during the shadowlands expansion a party of two people who stopped at the last boss and told us that we needed to pay x amount each for them to finish the dungeon.
It was funny and sad at the same time. Wish that behavior was reportable.
Oh that is quite easy, mute, report, forget they exist and just queue for next one.
It would promote “key farming” where you held the key at the same level to farm gear non stop after letting it fail. Nope. The entire system revolves around literally succeeding or failing the key and up or down based on results.
These situations do happen.
Nobody is, that tool hasn’t been suggested yet.
Nope, usually someone leaving results in no rating change for the others, at least not when I heal. Doesn’t matter how I did, it is always 0, no win credit either.
Because it is not a matchmade system, deserter was added to, and for, random dungeon finder, and expanded to LFR when it was added.
For that dungeon, for the express purpose of clearing that dungeon within the time limit, I am in a party with those folks. I am not there to baby or carry people who are not capable, put up with people spouting slurs or insults, or to wipe time and again to a boss people are incapable of downing.
It’s rare, but it’s not italics rare that a group isn’t able to finish their dungeon. Saw a healer last season who couldn’t heal chromie with the full group, people who didn’t do the soaks. While healing I had a tank who wouldn’t be in position and I’ve seen a moonkin stand in earthcracker’s tank soak. At high ends, a single slip up can and often has bricked keys that were otherwise going well.
Timed content, people want to complete within the time limit. Up next, water wet.
Players who are required to rely on others for clearing content are often let down by this system as a result. It’s a bad design.
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No, I can’t say I am often let down by the system letting people leave a group. And it is not bad design.
That’s not the wrong side of things.
It isn’t. I can say that pigs fly on this forum, it doesn’t make it reality.
Better would be a system that didn’t punish people for their group’s failures. If we are so intent on a punishment system, it should be based on who can’t meet the throughput checks or botches position, or a punishment for the group lead for putting together a bad group so that they can’t immediately put together another bad group and waste another 4 people’s time. Though I think the current system works fine, since it doesn’t encourage toxicity or punishing people for pushing their limits.
This game has a report system, it is just for actual gameplay sabotage or other rule violations. If someone joins a key with the express goal of trolling, report them. If someone leaves a key because the group is bad or it just isn’t going to be timed, feel free to report them too, but that’s not a rule violation. It is also not toxic to leave a group that cannot achieve the goals of said group or that is ill behaved. And if you don’t play it, you should probably stop paying for it, waste of money really.
I agree.
It is a complicated issue, for sure.
Its amusing that no matter how long I take a break, there is always a fresh thread on this topic lol
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In the context of the conversation you are quoting: RaiderIO is the “tool” in question (though warcraftlogs could work equally well here).
If a player has access to tools/resources to vet their group members, but chooses not to use them, that player is not a “victim” of a weak group that has tricked them into “carrying,” but rather-- to put it politely-- a “participant” or “contributor” to their own situation.
By neglecting to use the available resources, they share responsibility for the group’s composition and performance.