Venruki, the peoples champ has spoken ..... again

Literally copying and pasting this from a previous thread I posted in weeks earlier. They need to do the following:

top 60% Initiate
top 50% Combatant I
top 45% Combatant II
top 35% Challenger I
top 30% Challenger II
top 20% Rival I
top 10% Rival II
top 5% Duelist
top 3% Elite

End of season reward:

top 1% Gladiator
top .25% Rank 1

Make titles achievable after 3-4 weeks excluding gladiator and rank 1 which would remain end of season only. Boom fixed.

Beyond that, add more costmetic rewards, mounts, transmogs, titles, toys, achievements, etc just for participation.

The armor changes are good for the long-term health of the game, and indicate the intern making the changes does understand what they’re doing. The change just shouldn’t have been implemented mid-season.

The only way the armor changes are wholesale bad is if you consider any and all normalization to be anti-RPG. A valid opinion, but to me variable passive damage reduction against one, specific type of damage isn’t the hill to die on. Long-term this will make the game better balanced. It will make it more likely that they achieve a satisfying level of balance, and even when they fail to do so it will mean their failures result in less imbalance. These are guarantees.

drooling template haters to a man, yes

In particular contexts. Venruki is not a marketing tool for WoW, as he makes content for people who are almost exclusively already PvP players in WoW. His only marketing value would be to other developers trying to draw eyes from WoW to their game, but thanks to his specific niche it is likely this hypothetical other game would have to be arena-like.

If the standalone arena game that so many arena players would love to see the rise of came about, then yes, suddenly he and other PvP streamers would have marketing value. Currently such a game does not exist, however, and so their marketing value is somewhere between nil and marginal.

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This better system is called decay, and it’s how every other ladder that I know of operates.

I assume Blizzard maintains its deathgrip on inflation because they think it feels more MMO-like, where everyone at every skill level gets to progress over time, regardless of actual improvement. Not a suitable system or mentality for a competitive activity, but it fits with their historical decisions and rationalizations.

Even for hyperbole this is pretty hyperbolic. Even if you consider shuffle to be wholesale simpler than premade 3v3 it is still far and away beyond the threshold of sufficient complexity for that to be irrelevant. It is not a solved game, and never will be, and everyone is dealing with the same advantages and disadvantages. This means climbing to a similar point of the ladder will be similarly difficult, assuming all else is the same. The fact that premade has an additional layer of complexity added past the 99th percentile is trivia.

All else is not always the same, of course, which is where any actual additional ease of climbing in shuffle might arise. Participation is the biggest difference, which peaked in season 1. But even there that additional ease is specific to a narrow view: hypothetically if shuffle infused the ladder exclusively with sub-50th percentile players, then everyone who was previously above the 50th percentile would be pushed up inherently. That would be easier in the context of someone only paying attention to the ladder above that point, and who had played before and after season 1 of Dragonflight, but it would be an ease that would rapidly fade into non-existence.

Reality also isn’t that hypothetical. I came back to WoW because of shuffle, and I have played above 2.4k in every season so far. Every single person like me is wiping out the inflationary impact (when talking about breaking 2.4k) of ~97 players who have similarly returned to arena due to shuffle, but who are sub-2.4k players. Maybe the demographics of the infused playerbase does lilt towards sub-2.4k, but I doubt I am unique, and even if only 1 in 200 is eating up a spot above that rating you’re still cutting the impact by like 20%. That impact also still rapidly fades (at this point “has faded” is probably accurate) as returning players shake off most of their rust and are sorted into more-or-less their proper ladder position.

Finally, returning shuffle players are having some inflationary impact on the premade ladder, and I imagine it is relatively greater than they’re having on the shuffle ladder. I use premade as a means of gearing out and learning freshly capped 70s before taking them into shuffle. I get to 1.6k for the token and call it a day. Sometimes I just want to play, and don’t feel like playing one of my healers, and so I’ll look for any random group to do some games with. I imagine shuffle players dabbling in premade is not uncommon, and out of that dabbling I would further imagine that there are far fewer breaking into the highest ranks from it. This further narrows any existing gap.

I touched on it above, but the first part of this quote pretty much answers the second part. The more complex a game is the higher the floor to entry is, but ultimately it’s the same for everyone. So long as a game is complex enough that it can’t be fully solved, the skill ceiling is infinite in a practical sense, and where you find yourself on the ladder comes down to the same thing it does in any game: how well you manipulate the parts of the game that differentiate players. The players higher on the ladder are making better decisions and have better execution than the players lower than them. This is as true in shuffle as it is in premade.

I definitely prefer a game to have more than the bare minimum of depth so I can get lost in the weeds, but even if Blizzard decided to automate half of the current game the ladder would still function through the remaining half where the players have agency. Shuffle also has a very large amount of the same complexity as premade. If you became a multi-R1 shuffle player you would have done the majority of the work you’d need to do to become a R1 premade player, with the bulk of the remaining work being to learn the specific dance between various comps and how to communicate via voice effectively.

Shuffle vs. premade is League vs. DotA with a smaller difference. The latter has a greater barrier to entry, but in the long run the relative difficulty of progressing through the higher tiers is the same.

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you need to workout more get you some muscles -=D

HOLY WALL OF TEXT

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I find this questionable

Most players are not shuffling at mmr unreachable by, for example, an afk shaman robot or a backpedaling raider using zero of their nondamaging buttons. It’s theoretically possible that they tune the game so that hammering at enemy players with zero interest in what those enemies choose to do in response can’t win games at most ratings, but until they actually bother to I think it’s a bit highfalutin to call the game unsolved.

In comparing it to league-I only ever watch that game, but it doesn’t look like players that just charge at each other trying to do hero damage get very high. Is that an inaccurate assumption?

your the reason arena is dying rofl.

I 'member when “wall of text” referred to unpunctuated (the lack of line breaks leading to its name) post instead of just a long post.

Not sure who you’re referring to here.

There’s a lot to be said for having a superhumanly flawless damage rotation, but I would need to see more than Ele botted to high ratings to consider it a shuffle problem rather than a spec-specific problem. My perception is that Ele was particularly suited to botting because it was ranged, operated almost exclusively off of instants, had a rotation which could be executed by a fairly simple flowchart, and for whom defense consisted largely of facetanking damage while doing overwhelming damage itself.

It depends. I think the comparison is a bit unfair when arena is literally a team boxing match and League is objective-based, but when I was playing it was certainly rare enough at the apex tiers that players who embodied that playstyle were well-known. Hashinshin was the most notorious higher Elo player for his coin flippy, do-or-die, run-it-down playstyle, but his very existence meant that you could center your playstyle around primarily brawling.

Botting also did exist in League in the form of aimbots. Similar to how, from what I can tell, it works in WoW, it worked with specific champion types: namely skillshot champions who were balanced around missing a decent bit of the time. You could play Xerath and kind of crush people by default through never missing. The only player I’ve seen out-dodge an aimbot on an immobile champion is Faker himself.

In my personal experience of peaking at Diamond (about equivalent to Elite, percentile-wise), players pretty universally had better macro sense than those at the lower ratings. OTPs piloting more mechanically intensive champions were also significantly better at laning. It was very oppressive, and before I quit my active project was leveling up my own laning phase to match that. I prioritized it over bettering my macro because laning is a foundational skill, made more-so by my being a top laner.

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As soon as I read this I already knew OP’s class. Scrolled up and confirmed it lol

These mages and rogues don’t realize a 2v2 bracket would just be mages and rogues resetting each other for 2 hours until someone gets bored and leaves.

It’s one of the reasons I just stop talking. People don’t play, or if they do they don’t play at a relevant rating, and they just assume that “Inflation is the issue”. Reality is none of us want to play in this garbage meta.

Everyone hated dampening, but atleast in dampening metas we could play the game without losing our minds.

Currently playing Rating PvP is frustrating, many of us who play are here for the rewards, and if these rewards become extremely difficult to achieve they will give up, the current progression in SoloQ is extremely bad, someone explain to me what the point is losing 2-4 (-37) I take away more points than I get by going 4-2? (+29) Or that in a single bad game I lose my entire 3-hour progress queuing in SoloQ? (with queues of more than 30 minutes).

It simply does not make sense to make your players suffer so much with these progress problems to achieve their goals, it is not as many elitists say that it is that people want everything for free, it is that even if you insist on playing all day, every day and do everything right, you can lose all your progress in less time than it took you to achieve it, many simply get bored and move on to something else because they feel that it is not worth playing beyond 2.1k, of spending days, weeks or even months that the season lasts to go up to 2.4k for some weapons and a tabard, and let’s not even mention trying to obtain a gladiator in 3v3, find companions with good experience and persistence to be able to obtain the 2.4k and stay there for the seasonal mount, we are playing with an outdated ranking system, although it hurts the elitists, it is necessary to make PvP rewards more accessible, it is not a question of “they want everything for free”, it is to make the player feel that their time invested has been worth it and that you haven’t spent weeks or months with several hours each day without achieving any goal even though you play well simply because the progression system is broken.

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It’s built this way because it worked back when population wasn’t as high. And most of those people who got their .5% glad mounts sold their accounts (sorry to burst your bubble but life takes over eventually) Now, it doesn’t. The scalable solution is participation through wins. You might face rs1, mglads, mduelists, and whatever else for 3 hours and lose but it doesn’t matter…why? because you queue again and know you can win instead of losing 3 hours and feeling completely uninterested in ever PvPing again & that’s that’s without even looking at your cr so that is exactly where we’re at.

Like Captain Planet said - the power is yours! If enough people agreed, and provided constructive, readable feedback I can promise you Blizzard would read it & maybe even entertain it but 99% of you argue, insult, and flat out name-call because of reasons.

Oh well!

Where do I upvote for my free participation rewards? I navigated the UI and did my PvE rotation. I DESERVE GLAD MOUNTS

Edit: ALSO why do I lose rating for losing matches?! This is so UNFAIR. No wonder arena is dying!

Is this better? Do I get lifetime challenger approval now?

are you implying you think the population is higher now than it was when .5 gladiator was a thing?

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It is likely that 10.2.6 will be announced in the next few weeks. Blizzard… now is the time. If you are going to make changes to pvp tell us through an interview. Show us that you care. What are you doing to improve the pvp experience.

Being we’re on the PvP forums, it’s obvious I’m talking about WoW PvP population. How many MOP, WOD, CATA glad mounts do you think there actually are in existence just a a minor rhetorical question?

The game has ALWAYS been tremendously popular but PvP has always been an activity to do in between raid clears or bored & it took a really sharp turn when everyone complained nobody was dying in arena and now everyone is complaining everyone is dying too fast in arena. Thank God I don’t dev for blizz. Interacting with you lot would be a serious mental health concern and I mean it.

never implied you weren’t

you can tell how many players are playing by the amount of r1 spots

prideful/warmong had like 300k
recent seasons have like 120k

depends on the season obviously

not as few as players like u think

so far you’ve made a bunch of dumb assumptions then asserted bad information

i assume you’re just an idiot but maybe you’re just confused

Thanks for being constructive in a dying game mode though. You and your 15 other posters are the same exact mindset & cut from the same exact cloth. Toxic, rude, and insulting for no reason. Shrug!

P.S. People like you will never get new players to join the fight and try. You are the cancer this game needs to cut away unfortunately. One person at a time, one personality at a time, competition can be fierce but fair.

Good day!