Especially on outlaw, i dont like it, nor do i like how vanish is now the damage cd for all rogue specs. I thought combat\outlaw was suppose to be the non stealther spec.
I wish the class tree never existed honestly. For me all it does it make all the specs feel way to samey
Wishlist thoughts…
Make it so that during the duration of the Vanish buff mobs will not reset.
Second, give the Rogue tree (not a spec specific one) a talent that decreases CD to 30 seconds, increases buff time to 5 seconds, and removes you from stealth after the duration ends.
Basically give us the option to change this from a defensive ability to an offensive agility.
bro go play warrior or something that doesnt have stealth. To hate on a stealth class using stealth to do damage is insane to me. create a weakaura to track your subterfuge window on BTE. or go to edit mode and move your buff bar to a spot more easily seen and increase the size of the icons. Adapt, advise, and overcome. Learn to play the spec before hating on it.
Yall hated SD despite it adding flavor, now its gone with something worse in its place.
blind → vanish = no reset. Or sometimes stealthing and reattacking fast enough doesnt trigger a reset.
It’s not much but it’s something I guess.
… does it have to be every spec using the same subterfuge window?
Just because something has stealth doesn’t mean everything has to revolve around it.
Yeah I always thought that was Sub’s gimmick. I miss when Outlaw was it’s own thing
This is my thought. Having to use Vanish as a lesser Shadowdance does not feel good. Stealth windows is Subt’s identity - everything that Subterfuge does for Outlaw can easily be redesigned to be doable during Adrenaline Rush or some other buff window.
Using Vanish just to get a bigger Garrote for Assassination is just a lame use of Vanish. I think Blizzard should redesign the Garrot-from-stealth damage talent and slightly buff Garrote to compensate.
I feel Vanish is best as a defensive cooldown, not an offensive one.
that requires adren to not be a 99% uptime “cd”
vanish is fine, outlaw has been using vanish type mechanics for dps for years and the second vanish being useable for other utility stuff is neat qol
Bringing back shadow dance would make things worse.
At this point they need to finish the job they started.
Ironically sub currently is the least reliant on subterfuge
How delusional do you have to be to think like this? SD was the 2 points of subterfuge and a dps focused vanish all in 1 point. You could keep vanish for defensive/utility uses if you wanted to. Yall literally just hated it cause it’d been a Sub only ability for so long.
There is no job to finish. Yall got whatever backwards goal you wanted with its removal.
“Stealth windows is subs identity”… so whats the problem with sharing a piece of subs identity in the class tree?
And to Embers point, Sin rogue has 0 reliance on subterfuge as well. Outlaw players literally shot themselves in the foot with their dumb call outs.
it is a second dps vanish. its a tripple crackshot window, that is all. you have shadowmeld to get out of combat… if you arent a NE you are doing it wrong.
I 100% feel it is bad outlaw rogues who dont like the crackshot/vanish dps window. The damage is high consistently on every single pack. Single target is really freaking good as well. Yall just sound mad that you have so many buffs and things to keep track of the do optimal dps. Go play huntard and use 3 buttons. Go play an easier class if it is so bad or there is no “identity.” Go away from rogues ffs.
This mindset is unhealthy, and does more harm to the game than good.
It’s basically saying “Having a class with no identity that needs balancing and tracking of several different buffs to achieve average DPS is okay because there are classes that don’t have that problem.”
I don’t want to play a BM Hunter or Ret pally, I want to play a Rogue. I’ve mained it since I started playing and I care about the state it’s in. I care that it receives a fraction of the love and attention other specs do (save maybe DH) and I want to see it change for the better.
I don’t think Vanish being a DPS CD is good overall, but I also don’t think it’s going to change anytime soon without being part of a major class overhaul. I also don’t think a Rogue class overhaul is something anyone really cares to put time into, especially with Rogues being the least played class.
This just continues the vicious cycle of the class hemorrhaging players from a lack of attention and getting moved down in priority because a lack of players.
It just feels bad.
Shadow Dance was hated because it consumed ALL the Rogue specs to the point where it was considered trolling if you didn’t take it.
Or its just Rogues who don’t want to treadmill Hill Billy Subtlety and have something akin to what Combat used to be instead of this garbage, hackneyed APM spam.
Which is ironic coming from someone who plays the easiest spec out of the three.
Or or, hear me out.
We stop using Vanish as an offensive CD, and go back to good design.
No one said it was difficult, just doesn’t feel good and has nothing to do with being Outlaw/Combat, the spec it self is lacking a clear direction of design.
Take Roll the Bones for instance, its literally pointless and redundant, shouldn’t exist; the spec it self was supposed to be a cooldown management spec, not a buff juggler.
We don’t expect a shadowlands rogue to understand I guess 
May I remind people the reason why Kidney Shot was nerfed because of shadow dance existence when it was proliferated to all three specs. Not all three specs were balanced around on demand sap from Dance and Cheap shot.
Vanish+ CS can still be done but it is a choice you make to use it defensively versus using vanish offensively or for survivabiilty.
That is why two charges exist because BlizZard was not prepared to bring back Prep as a cap stone so the two charges of vanish is the compromise.
They should just delete Recuperator and put Without a Trace there and then add one more charge or give Assa a CDR on Vanish as well. Then I’d be happy.
Ty, now Sub rogue is not caring that its out the class tree (but lost its second Vanish charge in the process), Sin rogue suffering cause the replacement was absolute dog, and Outlaw shoe horned into the trash replacement. Every spec was left worse off with its removal because you cant understand that nerfing the only viable playstyle was not the solution. Next time only ruin it for yourself i guess instead of everyone.
And yet here you are crying anyway after not getting what you wanted.
No, the problem was it being the only playstyle; a degenerate playstyle that turned a lot of potential players away. But they (the developers) just couldn’t fully commit to removing it and made Crackshot spam cost more in talents.
Subtlety is just a click away.