Answer the question. What point do you think your making?
If you had a point, you should be able to answer it pretty easily
Ah, I see where your prior faulty assumption comes from; a faulty premise and a failed conclusion from it.
Nobody has said men have no power at all. Thatâs just in your head. Weâve correctly pointed out that the highest positions of power have been and still are held by women. That for every important position held by a man, thereâs at least three held by women. These are just facts; itâs not based on a desire, itâs simply based on things your can easily observe for yourself.
According to quest dialog, the reason Fandrel could openly argue with Tyrande had everything to do with Tyrandeâs patience. Not that he was her equal in power. Nothing suggested or implied that.
And that has been the case for a while. Nobodyâs disputing that. Nobodyâs even disputing that the gender role divide is slowly shifting.
The dispute comes from your statements that they are already egalitarian (which youâve flip-flopped on a few times so far). Thereâs no evidence of that; only that things are moving slowly.
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I would say we are at least at point where you couldnât consider the night elf a Matriarchy, even if they are not 100% egalitarian. In the same vein nations like Stormwind and Ironforge are not Patriarchal anymore even if there might still be inequalities here and there.
And I would say that I have a very diferent view on equality than you. A nation largely ran by women, with most of itâs important institutions controlled by women is not equal. Itâs still a matriarchy, by the common definition of the very word.
If you had basic reading comprehension you could read the previous posts and work it out. I donât have to repeat myself just so you can call me names in response. Your posting is very repetitive, as you have one default and that is to call posters sexist or misogynist when you donât have a way to respond to an argument.
The Devs refer to the representation of a Matriarchal society as a call back.
It is a discussion about what the Devs have said. It seems some crooked people want to throw accusations of âmisogynyâ and âsexismâ at other posters, just because they disagree on what the Devs meant.
Itâs admittedly kind of tricky pinning down just how pervasive the female rule of night elf society is, since WarCraft tends not to provide much in the way of details pertaining to anything that isnât directly or very closely tied to the military. Hence the disposition of day-to-day civilian governance in night elf society - as well as whoâs allowed to be in charge of it - isnât really represented.
Technically for a society to function there have to be tons of positions of authority and influence that arenât literally in the army or the church, but since WoW is thematically derived from an RTS, little attention is paid to the disposition of such things and who holds those positions. Kind of like how coming out of WC3 one could be forgiven for thinking there just plain wasnât any such thing as a night elf civilian. WoW changed that with lots of non-military night elves being around, but itâs never really addressed the question of how civilian life and governance actually works for everybody whoâs not a soldier or a priestess (or a druid), in a society whose underlying thematic framework was only really conceptualized in WC3 to account for RTS units who were all soldiers or priestesses or druids.
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That really doesnât say anything. The Night Elves are a society of former immortals. The people holding positions are the same people who held them since immediate Post-Sundering.
Itâs whether or not the rank and file are treated differently according to gender.
The problem is some people wantr to read into the statement âitâs a call back to that night elf culture from Warcraft 3â as meaning the entire culture has radically shifted in ways never shown nor represented in game or in novel form.
But heâs not saying that at all. Heâs talking about calling back to those visuals, those aesthetics. His whole conversation makes that clear; heâs talking about the powerful imagery being used. Heâs not making canonical commentary about the state of in-game societies anywhere in the interview.
Yet somehow, some posters think this one time, he absolutely is.
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Simple fact that the cenarion circle operate independently from the priestess of the moon in a lot of instances demonstrates that they do not answer to Tyrande.
I mean they even have their own zone which in moonglade which is outside the jurisdiction of the Priesthood. Yet they are still members of Kaldorei society and the night elves look to them for protection as much as the priest hood. Even Hyjal was taken back by the Cenarion circle back in cata, it wasnât the Priest hood.
Which, while hosting quite a few night elves, hasnât been a night elf group for a while. Tauren, trolls and worgen are also members. Tauren, trolls and worgen are not night elves.
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So? just because they have other races not part of their membership doesnât mean the night elves arenât part of Kaldorei society. I mean the leadership was based inside Teldrassil. Now the rest of the nightelf society are shacked up with them in Hyjal.
IM sure while Tyrande was off in the shadowlands with Shandris that left Malfurion to solely lead their people. There was a reason Sylvanas wanted him dead because killing him off would have meant Nightleves losing one of their leaders.
Sure the night elves are a part of kaldorie society. The night elves in the Argent Crusade are also part of kaldorie society. But the Cenarion Circle has been and continues to be itâs own thing, to the point where theyâve stayed out of two wars that threatened kaldorie society, because theyâre apolitical. Members fight for their faction, sure, but the Cenarion Circle stays neutral. To the point where the Cata/MoP war had the Cenarions gladly working with the same Horde attacking night elven settlements.
Itâd be like saying the Argent Crusade is proof of anything regarding the human kingdoms, in spite of the fact the AC is multi-racial, mutli-cultural and avidly neutral.
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but they are also seen as important enough to the people that they were allowed to plant a tree for the Night elves in teldrassil. You also now have the fact that the Night elves are staying in Cenarion circle territory. While the orgnisation stayed neutral in Some instances but in others they have led the charge or would you say that Cenarius has never lead Sentinels against the Horde?
Of course not. Iâd instead say that Cenarius is a long-time ally of the night elves, just like the Cenarion Circle are also as an organization long-time allies.
I would not however call Cenarius a night elf, nor would I call his existence proof that the night elves are not matriarchal. Because heâs an ally.
Likewise, I wouldnât call the mutli-racial Cenarion Circle a night elf organization, as they too are allies. Their existence also says nothing about night elves and their matriarchy. Because an alliance does not make trolls, tauren or worgen into night elves. And when you go ahead and stay out of politics, it means youâre like⌠Out of politics.
Pardon the pun, but I think youâve missed the forest for a tree here.
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He might feel awkward doing so nowadays given he personally blessed one of the Hordeâs races to âforever carry the mark of his favorâ.
Yet the night elves respect them as much as the priesthood(possibly more now considering how many have lost faith) Sure the other races arenât part of Night elf society however the group has Fundamentally change night elf society multiple times. If they held no power they wouldnât be able to do this.
You donât plant something like a world tree that would fundamentally change the night elf race unless you believe you held the power and influence to. You wouldnât have their people occupy your lands.
A matriarchy wouldnât have any men in power and even among the military we have had men lead them.
Again im not saying that the Cenarion circle holds more power. Im stating that men have a growing influence which is shifting the dynamic to be more egalitarian than it was.
The priesthood ruled thousands of years while druids slept and the society is changing as they get re intergrated within the society.
which race was this, was it the tauren?
The first half I agree with. The second half is baseless speculation.
Except we know that Fandrel was opposed even within the CC over this. He just went and did it anyway. This speaks more to his character as repeatedly portrayed within the game than any bold statement about the reverence of the Cenarions.
The night elves occupied Teldrassil because, according to the lore, they had no home after Hyjal.
That is a blatantly false statement. A matriarchy does not mean men hold no power, ever, anywhere. Iâve already provided the definition above. America is a patriarchy. We still have women in congress, on the Supreme Court, even as vice president.
Youâre all misunderstanding the term here.
Which isnât being disputed. Itâs not even the cause of our disagreement.
You conflated the factual statement of ânight elven society is matriarchalâ with a preference of âI want a night elven society that is matriarchal and actively oppresses all menâ. You also, along with Drahl, incorrectly think that a matriarchal society must be the gender-swapped version of some of the more egregious aspects of a patriarchal society, ignoring that oppression of the opposing gender is not a part of the definition at all.
These mistakes are yours, friend.
Using an example outside of WoW, The Nora tribe in Horizon Zero Dawn is a matriarchal society and yet the second in command of their braves is a male. Who becomes acting Warchief after the Warchief, Sona, was presumed missing or dead following the Eclipses attack. The leaders of the Nora are a council of 3 women literally called the High Matriarchs. Aloy not being born from a human mother is why she was outcast. In Nora culture, the idea of the Mother is the cornerstone of their belief.
For one in WoW, The Naga are a matriarchal society and yet males can be elevated to positions of power. For example, Vashjâs second in command was a male. (Final boss of Steamvault)
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Not only were they not a Horde race at the time, it would be thousands of years before there was a Horde at all. The High Mountain Tauren had nothing to do with his death.
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