And even now both of them are drifting to a point where you can be male or female and be a night elf druid or priest. That the gender shouldn’t matter at all in what class you can be.
You seem confused about even making that point.
You point to post-Teldrassil randomly generated NPCs and say “see? Problem instantly solved”.
You point to the shen’dralar, a fringe group of highborne who left thousands of years ago who happen to be led by a man that went on to ask Tyrande for re-admittance and say “see? Problem’s been solved for a while.”
You head-canon that the only reason women have ruled the political, military and religious arms of night elven society is because a small portion of men were asleep and say “see? This only happened because this small portion of men slept and allowed it to happen.”
You bring up the Illidari… Ok, I’ll admit, I have no clue why you ever thought bringing them up was proof of anything, given they were created by an exiled ex-con, made up of a variety of races, and had as much to do with night elven society as the blood elves do. But you did and said “see? This exists, is led by a man, and therefore equals the Wardens. For reasons known only to Zarde.”
Your attempts to “slowly move towards egalitarianism” involve an awful lot of sexism, head-canon and for no reason at all, randomly generated content.
My point in bringing them up is to show that night elven female do not seem to care what gender leads them.
No, I am saying that women became the dominant rulers because the men slept. And now that they are all awake the race is moving to a point where anyone, of any gender can have a position of power/authority.
I didn’t say “problem solved”. I am showing however that the faction that was once dominated by women have been forced to change like everyone else. In the same vein Stormwind use to only allow male soldiers but with the constant wars now anyone can be a soldier.
So you’re trying to disprove a point nobody made?
Very Zarde.
The DRUIDS slept.
Not all men are druids.
How do you not get that?
But you haven’t. The closest you’ve gotten to that was “randomly generated NPCs exist, and show more women than men”. You’ve tried backing that up with some of the sketchiest, Erevien-esque logic I’ve seen used.
“Illidan is boy and leads some naga, some broken, some blood elves and some night elves. And some of those some night elves are womenses, and we do not see them bristle at the boy!”
“A group thrown out from night elf society millenia ago are led by a boy, and when they came grovelling back and were allowed in, they still were led by a boy!!”
“Druids tho!! Druids let women rule everything while druids slept tho!!”
Yeah, you’re showing something alright. It’s not what you want to be showing, but you’ve shown it very well.
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I am showing that the supposed matriarchy is not really existant/even relevant anymore to the night elves.
That was a later retcon. Back in Warcraft 3, all the males were druid. But I digress. You are right that only druids slept. It just so happens that the Malfurion, a person Tyrande would have shared the leadership role with, also slept. The moment he awoke, both of them became leaders.
We literally have the website telling us the night elves are lead by both Malfurion and Tyrande, the idea that the night elves are still matrichal when their various organization have shown either men participating/leader in equal measure should be enough proof they are no matrhiarchal anymore.
Yes, I have shown who I am. I am all for equality. I don’t particular care for any race to be dominated by one or the other gender.
If that’s what you want to show, you should start trying to show that.
Then why do you insist the only reason the night elves were ever considered a matriarchy is because druids were asleep? Why do you assume the Sisters of Elune (who were an order predating the Sundering) was female-led because druids slept? Why do you assume the Sentinels would cease to be a female-led, female-majority military if the druids hadn’t slept?
Wardens: Still led by a woman.
Sentinels: Still led by a woman.
Sisterhood of Elune: Still led by women.
… Unorganized mages: led by a man who answers to the military leadership, which is led by a woman.
Illidari: Not a part of night elf society at all.
There is no equal measure here. You’re just deluded.
We know. You’re doing a very good job of it here.
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I just explained it, the fighting force of the night elves would have more male fighter and more importantly, would have been lead for that 10,000 by both a man and a woman.
I have given several examples already of it.
And the druids, a powerful faction in their own right which is both a military and spiritual instution are led by men. A group that would be needed by the night elf fighting forces in dire situations.
Why people want a races culture to be a sexist culture that looks down on a gender puzzles me. Should we start ignoring when other races start having sexist elements that look down on women.
I have to imagine you guys are just as upset about Moria was made an equal leader among the dwarves right?
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Genderarchys aren’t a good thing no matter which gender is dominating the other.
The trope foundation, classic Amazons were fictional creations of a society that was absolutely the worst when it came to misogyny, who literally saw women as monsters.
Genderarchys are societies where one gender is being put in a second class or worse position in favor of empowering the other. That is not happening to males in Night Elf society, it never has. Certain jobs i.e. Druid and Priesthood used to have heavy gender preferences but the Druids were never subordinate to the Sisterhood nor was it the other way around. Instead both are essentially equal in importance and prestige.
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In all honesty, the darkfallen elves who joined the Alliance will probably never come up in any meaningful way in canon. Velonara’s wording was basically just “if people want to try to reconcile with their old lives, they can”. To me, that mostly just read as a simple and uncomplicated reasoning for why players can play as undead elves.
But the majority of them, Thalassian and Darnassian alike, are very much staying with the Forsaken. Velonara and Delaryn will clearly be the main characters of the respective groups going forward, and both have clearly stated that their place is with the Forsaken among other undead rather than among their living kin.
I don’t expect that to change any time soon (mostly because I don’t expect significant Forsaken focus again any time soon), so for the time being you can probably just say that Tyrande/Alleria/whoever allowed in select individuals for their skills and general heroism as an adventurer. It’s not going to be a massive cultural shift towards accepting undead any more than the night elves shifted to accept death knights.
Excactly. Why is it ok to have a Matriarchy when the Dwarven Patriarchy was shown to be an awful institution?
No, you’re explaining nothing. You’re stating if the druids didn’t sleep, suddenly the Sentinels wouldn’t be a primarily-female organization, the Sisterhood of Elune also would not (in spite of history telling a different story) and similarly for the wardens. Because Malfurion.
One real relevant group. One.
Are you implying the druids alone are of equal political, military and spiritual power to the Sentinels, Sisterhood and Wardens combined now?
I mean no, because you’re not “now” arguing it. You’ve been arguing that the druids alone are the full equal of all these female-led, female-populated, female-controlled groups. You’ve been saying that for a while now. And wondering why that seems sexist.
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It’s puzzling because nobody is saying that. It’s puzzling because you’re creating an argument just to be puzzled by it.
It’s very weird.
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Political and spiritual yes, they are probably equal or at least capable of challenging the Sisterhood(hence why Fandral was openly capable of arguing with Tyrande). Militarily of course not. But as I mentioned the Sentinels are now slowly drifting to an egalitarian institution that accepts both genders.
I point out males have equal leadership in a culture as it has changed from how it was.
People argue men have no power and that it hasn’t changed and only woman have power.
It’s not puzzling to me; it is clear people have a preference on how they want night elves to be perceived and are willing to ignore elements of the story.
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We’re pointing out the females are still the dominate leading group of the Kaldorei. And everyone dude with a fragile ego is just going Nu Uh…something something male druids. The male druids man!
Yes. but the measure isn’t power but influence. The Druids are more involved in the general maintenance of night elven life, they manage much of the Night Elve’s food source, they are the ones that draw lumber from trees without killing them and create most of the Night Elf living dwellings that aren’t made of marble, and even in those cases performed most of what was needed to obtain and deliver the marble used in creating the Temple of Elune in Darnassus.
Both groups generally need and operate with each other, but both are independent of each other as well. There are exceptions. Tyrande gave orders to Broll on one occasion, and Malfurion was ordering Sentinel forces about during the War of Thorns. Neither case however was based on an innate authority of one gender over another, but the personal influence and political power of the individuals involved, Tyrande and Malfurion, respectively.
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your only proving my point.
What point do you THINK you’re trying to make?
And there is the circular argument.