Too many DPS in m+: A different perspective

Tl;dr at the bottom

This thread is created with regards to the complaints about there being a lack of tanks/healers for m+ keys, and serves to broaden they playersbase’s perspectives on that issue. On top of that, it comes with a suggestion of how to lessen (not entirely solve) the issue, but focused on the DPS rather than the tanks/healers. The suggestions main goal is to raise the skill floor of DPS to a similar level of tanks and healers.

Who am I?

Since some people demand credibility whenever you present ideas or they’ll be quick to ignorantly label you as troll, I’ll introduce myself here.
I’m playing on the EU servers, my main this season is Tómtefar, a zandalari paladin to the kazzak realm. I casually play m+ and pug all my keys, and I’m currently tanking in the +14 key range at 3.1k rating, but I also dabble with alts that tank/heal/dps around the 10-12 key range. Not that that matters, judge this idea for what it’s containts rather than who I am, if you have the cognitive ability to do so.

Here’s some keywords you need to understand before you read this:

Hard-carry = The group act of playing good enough to allow one player to fully afk, yet succeed. The group hard-carries the afk player.
Skill floor = The bare minimum you have to be able to perform to pass the role-specific skill checks.
Skill ceiling = Your utmost capability. This is what you can achieve with perfect gameplay.
Tank buster = A hit that deals devastating damage to the tank. Just to define it with numbers, let’s say 70% of their maximum health if they have no external buffs or personal defensives up. Adjusted for the recommended ilvl for the specific key it happens in (just to throw a number out there, lets say 619 ilvl in +10). In tank busters Tank carries the major ability to influence the outcome, but other group members can help the tank by using externals.
Heal check = An event that deals major damage to one or more allies that the healer must counteract by healing a certain amount within a specific timeframe (for example Dark Pulse at third boss in City of Threads) to pass the check. In heal checks the healer carry the major ability to influence the outcome, but other roles can help the healer by using defensives and contributing healing.
DPS check = An event where a certain amount of damage has to be dealt within a specific timeframe to pass the event (for example the crystals from Umbrelskul in Azure Vault in DF s4). In DPS checks the DPS carries the major ability to affect the outcome, but other roles can help the DPS by using offensive cd’s and contributing damage.

To start off we need to establish some things.

  1. The issue that there’s too many DPS relative to the amount of tanks/healers lowers the higher the keys being done are. At the absolute top the DPS surplus is substantially lower, if not next to non-existing.
  2. DPS carry no personal responsibility (Up to and including +10 keys, they carry small but yet increasing responsiblity in keys higher than that). Sure, they along with the rest of the group have a collective responsibility to do enough damage to beat the timer, but since one DPS can go fully afk in keys as high as +10 and still time it because the rest of the group picked up their slack, the skill floor for a DPS is at an absolute ground level (up to 10s, I’ll explain more about higher keys later). A single DPS can without much effort be hard-carried by the group in keys up to +10.

To compare (2) we can look at the skill floor for healers and tanks in +10 keys.
If a healer were to afk or die the very first second of a pull, the group can still successfully proceed forward depending on the group comp. If it’s a group comp that lacks capability of restoring their own and other group members health, they’ll at least be able to proceed forward for a while, but won’t be able to to finish the entire dungeon. Only with specific comps can a healer be hard-carried in keys, with most comps they absolutely can not.
If a tank were to afk or die the very first second of a pull, the group will wipe within seconds of continuing the fight. The tank can under no circumstanses be hard-carried in any key.
This illustrates how the skill floor is at the absolute floor for a DPS, higher for a healer, and highest for a tank in the most commonly played keys. As you venture into higher keys the dungeons start to demand more of each specific role, I.E. raising the skill floor. Here’s where I admit that the skill floor doesn’t raise linearly between the different roles, and that the DPS skill floor will eventually become higher than the tanks and healers skill floor (high keys, higher than any 14-15 key that I’ve ran myself). That is because as the skill floor raises, the gap between skill floor and skill ceiling narrows, and due to DPS having a more complex rotation they naturally have a higher skill ceiling.

The issue at hand

There’s far too many DPS that are failing upwards, I.E. been carried into keys they shouldn’t have any business in. Remember the example of a DPS being able to fully afk in a +10 key, if you perform at the level that equals being afk you simply have no business being in a 10 key.
So how do we prevent DPS being able to be hard-carried in m+? Some may say we should make timers tighter, but that puts pressure on the tank to pull bigger, survive better, and the healer to heal more. In other words it doesn’t raise the skill floor for the DPS, it raises it for everyone. We want to bring specifically the DPS skill floor more in line with tank and healers skill floor.
My suggestion is to implement DPS checks. Failing these DPS checks should have as disastrous catastrophes as failing a tank buster or a heal check, I.E. a full blown wipe.

So how challenging should a DPS check be?

This obviously has to be tested and tuned by blizzard, all the numbers presented are just to give you a general idea of the concept that is a DPS check.

Since +10 keys these days can be completed with just 66% of the groups DPS being present, I think we can start out with DPS checks requiring everyone in the group to perform 70% (maybe it should be 80%, tuning and testing will have to decide) of the maximum theoretical output that they’re capable of with a standard m+ build (see wowheads default m+ builds for your spec), adjusted for the recommended item level for the key in question. This change promotes a strategical use of offensive cooldowns, which raises the skill floor.
This also means that there’s still room for a wide margin of error up +10 keys where the rewards end, if someone isn’t performing 70% the rest of the group members can pick up some slack by performing for example 90%. In keys above +10 the margin of error lessens, and eventually you’ll hit a spot where everyone needs to contribute 100% to pass the check. You might argue that it is impossible to contribute 100% to pass the check, but likewise it eventually becomes impossible to contribute 100% to pass the dungeon timer too. The question is what will be the limiting factor for the absolute highest keys: DPS checks, heal checks, tank busters, or dungeon timer?

How does this help with having an abundance of DPS in lower-mid keys?

By raising the skill floor for DPS, we effectively keep the DPS who aren’t skilled enough from slowly climbing up the rating and gear ladder by pure carries. If they can’t perform at a level that allows the group to complete a for example +6, they’ll never reach a +6. As there’s now less DPS in keys, the relative amount of DPS per tank/healer is now lower, effectively making the competition for spots in m+ groups less fierce. It may also result in the DPS who finds that he lacks to skill to venture further than a +6 trying out a tank/healer instead, and find that their skill floor allows him to venture up to a +7 or +8 now, thus increasing the tank/healer pool too.

Pros and cons of DPS checks:

  • Pros
    • There will be less unqualified DPS to take up spots in keys, resulting in more tanks per DPS.
    • Tanking/healing suddenly has less responsibility than they previously had relative to the responsibility of a DPS, and may draw more DPS to try out tanking/healing when they can’t overcome their DPS checks. Not all DPS will want to try other roles, but some may be incentivized to do so as DPSing isn’t as easy as before.
    • Less frustration about DPS getting carried into key brackets they have no business being in. DPS now have to pull more weight to get there.
  • Cons
    • Less carrying potential. Since DPS can’t fail upwards, more might fail because the rest of the group can’t pick up as much slack for the severely underperforming DPS.
    • DPS players who got previously got carried may quit wow due to not being able to fail upwards anymore, resulting in less revenue for blizzard.
    • If the healer/tank refuses to help in a DPS check, there’s extra pressure on the DPS to compensate. Much like how there’s extra pressure on healers during heal checks when people don’t use defensives.
    • Potentially less token sales for blizzard if hard-carrying keys up to +10 becomes impossible. This can be prevented by making it hard to hard-carry, but not impossible if you’re overgeared.

All in all, m+ should be a challenging mode, and for it to be able to challenge DPS you have to be able to fail as a DPS.
Feel free to discuss and criticize the idea, what effects can you foresee if this were happen?

Alternative punishment for failing a DPS check
Since wipes can feel overly punishing, an alternative to failing a DPS check could be having the groups damage done reduced by 90% for 20 seconds (I made these numbers up and they can be adjusted as you see fit). That way you may fail one DPS at the end of a rough encounter, but not have to start the encounter all over again. It punishes the group collectively due to the time going to waste, but mainly the DPS instead of the tank and healer.

Tl;dr

DPS skill floor is too low, raise it so that not only tanks and healer carry importance and responsibility, but DPS too. I suggest through DPS checks.

Edit:

Added to Cons:

  • Potentially less token sales for blizzard if hard-carrying keys up to +10 becomes impossible. This can be prevented by making it hard to hard-carry, but not impossible if you’re overgeared.

Added example of recommended ilvl for 10s as 619 ilvl. This is just an example and in no way indicative of what I think the recommended ilvl should be.

Added an example of an alternative punishment for failing the DPS check under the label “Alternative punishment for failing a DPS check”, group deals 90% reduced damage for 20 seconds (I made these numbers up and they can be adjusted as you see fit).

Added some background information about me to explain the level 10 alt post in Who am I? to let the forum trolls have one less thing to make angry noises about.

12 Likes

Isn’t the entire premise of this based around the idea that most dps are applying to groups that they aren’t capable of doing without being a carry? Of course there are some dps like that, but I don’t think its the majority.

It would also make carries harder, which would affect Blizzard’s token sales so even if it was a good idea, not happening.

1 Like

I always feel unqualified to answer in these types of threads because I’m a mid key player mostly. I did up to 11s as a heal and a tank I got to 10s. But lately I’ve just been chill in lower keys and I understand that 11s aren’t even high keys by many other players standards.

But I want to share something because I DO play a lot of lower/mid keys and have a ton of different experiences in them.

The fact that people feel DPS don’t have responsibility like a tank or a healer probably causes like 70% of the bad group experiences at low/mid levels.

We absolutely do rely on good dps to help counter a lot of the tanks sustained damage in a group. Using interrupts, using knock-ups to hard interrupt, using defensives on the group… most of our dps classes have these abilities.

It makes a HUGE difference on a groups experience in even a lower mythic when the dps utilize their abilities to help the group. This is beyond just “doing a rotation”. It’s understanding the fights.

And I think that’s the biggest problem I see. Players entering higher keys without fully understanding their role because of an issue with gearing in this game.

I don’t think punishing players more by introducing a higher skill ceiling quicker is an answer. That sort of thing has already cut off a lot of players from wanting to get into mythics in the first place. But with a better reward system we could have a better ramp up in experience into content that feels rewarding.

4 Likes

Not entirely, but part of it absolutely is. The part about how this may lower the imbalance between the amount of DPS and the amount of tank/healers suggest that there’s a noteworthy amount of DPS that are failing upwards. It doesn’t have to be a majority, but it does take for granted that it is an amount worth dealing with.

Wether or not DPS perform well enough their failures should be as consequential as tanks/healers failures, and right now that just isn’t the case.DPS can fail to the utmost extreme, and the only immediate consequence will be that the timer is not met, given that the healer and tank can survive their failures. It’s simply not more than fair that if healers and tanks can wipe a group due to poor plays, a DPS should also be able to wipe a group due to poor plays. Alternatively tank and healers should not be able to wipe groups when they fail, but that would be ridiculous in a mode that’s meant to be challenging.

Yes, that’s an issue. That’s part of the reason why the DPS checks have to be tuned to a proper difficulty. If it’s tuned so that 1 DPS can be fully afk, as long as the rest of the group performs within let’s say 95% of what they’re capable of and somewhat overgears the key level then hard-carries can still be done, just much harder than what they currently are (because right now you can hard-carry and 2 or 3-chest all keys). This way the boost sales can continue, but they can charge more for their +10s. Blizzard still gets to sell tokens, boosting community gets their gold, and we generally get less underqualified players in keys they shouldn’t be in. It’s not everything we would wish for, but it would be much better than what it is today.

Those are all things that are equally important for all roles to contribute with. DPS have no inherent major ability to influence any outcomes in the scenario you describe.

The skill ceiling remains the same, this is about raising the DPS floor. It is meant to throw people out of mythics if they can’t play at the skill level that should be required to overcome the challenge. Much like how Mythic raiding keeps players out of mythic raiding if they don’t posses the skill to overcome the challenges there. There’s other game formats for those who can not develop high enough as a player.

Just to clarify: If a player can’t perform well enough to handle a +2, they’ll either have to learn or settle for m0. If a player can’t perform well enough to handle m0, they’ll either have to learn or settle for hc dungeons, and so on.
Everyone faces their wall when it comes to challenging content at some point. It’s okay if some people face that wall at +18 keys, and others face that at +2, or even normal dungeons.

2 Likes

I don’t really agree with this. I think that yes it could help slightly with the imbalance, but I think making M+ more difficult and less accessible would reduce overall player enjoyment and engagement on the low/mid levels which is not a win.

You’d be improving the imbalance by simply kicking some players out. I can see how some elitist players would applaud that but I don’t think that’s healthy for the game.

3 Likes

Make timers tighter.

Make tanking and healing easier.

It’s fixed.

/thread.

Add more interruptable spells that target the DPS with a one shot.

4 Likes

Make the dps requirement 70% of which specs?

What are we simming to figure out the potential DPS?

Patchwerk 5 1m30s?

I would argue this would have little to no effect on people being able to hard carry a DPS

3 Likes

If we only lose DPS players from the m+ pool it would still mean that the amount of keys being done remains the same though, as there is a DPS surplus. I realize that nobody who’s currently underperforming and getting carried would be cheering for this, but it would make the roles carry equal responsibilities.

The alternative to make things more “fair” for tanks and healer would be to remove to responsibilties they carry in keys up to +10, so that they can also be hard-carried in all group comps. That would mean that you can run only 1 healer and 3 DPS and still complete a + 10, which in turns would also mean that you wouldn’t ever choose to pick a tank at all for m+.

DPS needs to have some kind of responsibility in m+, similar to that of tanks and healers.

I understand your point of view, I’m torn myself when I’m pondering the effects of this. On one hand I don’t think it’s a good thing to kick anyone out and close the door for them just because they’re bad, on the other hand I don’t feel like the door should ever have been opened for them in the first place.

It’s sort of like if mythic raiding would’ve been at heroic raiding level right now. I wouldn’t like if they increased the difficulty and I was suddenly not good enough for the raid or it’s rewards, but I would respect that the most rewarding content should be challenging enough to not allow me to fully afk.

Tanking and healing is fine as it is, nothing about it is currently too hard. Challenging content should be challenging.

It’s group content and everyone in the group should be able to assist with the challenges you’re faced with. Patty cakes mechanics are dumb and has no place in group content. Plus implementing it would either be too easy to counter, or too rng reliant and thus impossible to counter.

Obviously the specs needs to be balanced, there shouldn’t be such a discrepancy as it currently is. And as I said the numbers would need to be tested and tuned accordingly by blizzard.
With that said, I believe the requirement should be 70% of the middle of the pack DPS. For a single target DPS check then sure, we can sim for patchwerk. The numbers are still left for blizzard to handle and adjust. For a 5 target DPS check (if those were to happen), I guess we can sim for 5 targets instead.

Depending on the numbers that blizzard would have to settle on, it could have no effect or it could make hard-carrying impossible. We can’t tell if it isn’t tested and tuned.

Ban half the dps players

Fixed

3 Likes

Yep, give em the Thanos treatment and problem solved!

2 Likes

When does the ban happen?

Need to know when to change specs for a moment

I actually really like OP’s case here

Increasing DPS requirements in M+ and making the success of the run more reliant on the DPS doing their job effectively would indeed seperate the wheat from the chaff theoretically, but if there’s still avenues for player to gear above their skill level, it’ll still create a few problems. So things like delves etc… .would need to reward lower ilvl gear because the skill needed to complete that content does not align with the high ilvl of gear it rewards.

1 Like

If your premise is based on every spec doing similar ae and st damage, then I guess I am lost.

It’s a noble endeavor to want that. Not realistic.

2 Likes

Yes, there’s outside factors that can complicate the idea behind the DPS checks, but generally it at the very least serves to put some responsibility on the DPS. How much responsibility they’re faced with would depend entirely on what numbers blizzard would settle for.

It’s an utopia, I know, and that would never happen. But the number can be set so that there’s a wide enough margin for error in these popular keys (2-10). As you climb to high keys, the meta of course prevails, as it always will do with or without this change.

Yeah this plan of action would just expand the requirement for running meta comps and likely end up just flat out leaving a ton of specs out when they don’t contribute enough to a specific DPS check.

3 Likes

Sure. But the margin for error would be wide enough it doesn’t accomplish any of the stated goals

Either it’s tight enough the meta means even more at lower keys, or its wide enough you can still easily hard carry

Depends entirely on the number set.
For example the Dark Pulse in third boss in CoT has a wide enough margin for error for all healers to be able to handle it without having to be a meta pick, but it remains a heal check.

The stated goals is to make it harder to hard-carry, and to put some responsibility on top of DPS.
It might be tuned so that if 1 DPS dies it can still be completed, but if 2 are dead it’s impossible. That would still be a bigger responsibility than what they have today, as all 3 can currently be dead for an entire boss encounter, but the boss will still be killed by the tank and healer (after a darn long time).

Edit:
Someone pointed out that this would conflict with the idea of maing hard-carries at recommended ilvl impossible, and they’re right. I withdraw from this and I think that if everyone is at recommended ilvl, a dead DPS should be mathematically impossible to hard-carry through a DPS check.
Ress that DPS or accept the inevitable wipe as a punishment for failing.

I think the simplest solution to this without having to redesign the dungeons would be adding back the proving grounds.

Have trials DPS have to go through to earn medals. It would be various tasks like interrupts, dispelling, positioning, and of course DPS checks.

Once they pass they get a medal that would show up when they sign up for a group. Now groups would be able to decline the DPS that don’t have the medals so DPS wouldn’t get carried

are you trying to say proper class balance is undoable? Why let Blizzard off the hook so easily?

Blizzard has gotten so unforgivably lazy with class tuning lately it’s ridiculous. With the OP’s suggested changes, it should also come with Blizzard actually taking it seriously for once and adjusting tuning across the board for DPS.