I believe he’s saying perfect class balance is undoable, which is true.
What you suggest is adding DPS checks, but with extra steps.
I’d have to disagree with it needing to be “perfect”
Even if you have a ~10-15% difference from the best DPS numerically to the worst DPS, it’d be an astronomical improvement over what it is today. There’s been way too many seasons in a row now where the meta DPS are just blatantly more tuned numerically than the weaker DPS specs, and there’s no reason it needs to stay that way.
WE’re not talking 0.1% keys, just decently high keys.
I have never seen a game with perfect balance in both AE and ST.
This conflicts with the stated goals in OP.
Here you stated having even 1 dps dead should mean a fail.
This thread and OP is specifically about 2-10 keys.
If you add DPS checks to a dungeon the DPS will expect the healer and tank and the other two DPS to carry the weight.
But if you added a proving grounds it would be a solo task with only yourself. Very different
None of us have said it has to be perfect. He just commented that if I use the premise that have perfect balance then this is a fruitless effort as that premise can’t be met.
My bad, I’ll be adjusting this. Thanks for the feedback.
Gotta make it easier for them to offset the tighter timers.
There’s no need for tighter timers, and this thread is not for that.
It’s to over complicate the solution then. You don’t want “afk” DPS. Tighter timers directly solves that.
Another variable is at what ilvl do you take your official damage simulations for balance?
10s give 613 Hero 1/6 that can upgrade to 626. While giving 623 Myth vault gear that can upgrade to 639.
I find many many people in keys drastically over gear the rewards they will be getting.
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Actually, I’ll have to take back what I said. You’ll have to explain more for me to agree with you.
The proposed changes takes suggested ilvl into consideration, meaning that for a current +10 everyone would need to perform at the bare minimum 70% (numbers still need to be tested and adjusted accordingly), if everyone at at 619 (I made that ilvl up as a suggested ilvl). That do indeed mean that hard-carrying is impossible without overgearing, but it’s very much possible when you do overgear.
Indeed, that one DPS being dead (and not being ressed) would mean that you can’t hard-carry through DPS checks unless you overgear them.
As I see it, that means it does make it harder to carry, but not impossible (in 2-10 key range). 1 DPS will only mean a fail if people are not overgeared.
I’m sure I’m missing something that you’re seeing, so please explain. I’d love to adress this better.
It’s group content, healers and tanks should absolutely not just hand over all the responsibility to the DPS. As long as they’re capable of helping in DPS checks (I.E. capable of dealing damage) they should feel pressured to help out. Just as DPS should feel pressured to use their defensives during heal checks.
Tighter timers adds responsibility to all roles. This is an effort to add major responsibility to the DPS role.
Ok.
You said here.
The group of DPS should have to perform at 70% of their potential to proceed. This will stop a hard carry, since a hard carry would only need 66% of dps production to proceed.
If it is tuned so that 1 dps dies and it can still be completed, its not tuned for 70% dps production.
I see, then I withdraw that suggestion.
If all players are 619 ilvl or less in a +10 key, it should be impossible to pass a DPS check with one DPS being dead.
Thank you for pointing that out.
Dps will still get carried and fail up just less frequently. Which will result in less unqualified dps at any given key level but I don’t like the idea of a key I’m in getting bricked because one of the dps isn’t performing on the last boss and I’ve wasted 30 mins.
I agree that it is easier to be carried as dps because your role is shared between two other players. Although a tank can be carried by good dps and a good healer. And a healer can be carried by good dps and good tank.
Your post was well thought out and I appreciate you went over definitions so the discussion is all on the same page but I disagree with your suggested changes.
The follow up will be how rarely I see a group of 619s doing a +10 after the first few weeks of the season.
619 is just a numbers example. It could be 623 too.
In the same sense 70% is just a numbers example, could be 80%. It depends on how tight we want the checks to be.
The concept demands that the DPS performs to some extent to pass the DPS check, which puts the burden of responsibility on them, just like healers and tanks gets to carry the burden of responsibilty over tank busters and heal checks.
But it greatly influences it. And for me, its a huge variable on what makes this difficult.
You cant make it that much higher, because thats what the reward is. I strongly believe a ton of m+ is done by people that over gear it for their vault. If that is the case, then that 70/80/whatever number means a lot less.
70% of the dps of someone doing the run naturally, for gear…is a lot less than the 70% of a person over gearing it for vault.
I could start a +10 right now, and easily get everyone 630+ for 10s.
So it wont effect people much outside of the lowest geared full groups in the early runs of the m+ season.
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One thing your post made me think of, though it is tangential to the discussion, is if you had the optimal group comp for a specific dungeons, optimal gear for all those characters, the tank and healer performed at the skill ceiling and the dps performed mechanically perfectly but their dps was throttled. What is the most the damage could be reduced by throttling their output so the key is still gets timed.
You specifically focused on your post about a single dps needing to be carried but what would that look like of all damage was reduced to a minimum? Effectively you’re asking to raise that number.
Do you like having class and spec flavor, or should every class basically just be the same flavor of melee dps or range dps, because this is what it would take to make M+ perfectly balanced.
Class identity has definitely taken a hit because of Mythic+ balance. Blizzard has been stuck in an endless loop of trying to make every class viable for high keys, which leads to homogenization. Instead of classes having unique strengths and weaknesses, they all get similar utility, self-sustain, and cooldowns to compete at the highest levels.
Take interrupts and CC as an example—back in the day, certain classes had specific advantages (like Shamans with Wind Shear being the only ranged kick on a short cooldown). Now, every class has some kind of interrupt or equivalent toolkit because M+ demands it. The same goes for things like group-wide defensives, mobility, and healing.
The worst part is that this arms race doesn’t even work in the long run. There’s always going to be a meta, and certain specs will always be left out. But instead of embracing class diversity and making different playstyles shine in different content, Blizzard keeps trimming away at what made each class special just to make sure they all fit into the same M+ mold.
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I agree, but as I’m not involved in any of blizzards testing and tuning I have no greater knowledge to give an exact (or even a somewhat precise) ilvl that would be fit for this, so examples are the best I can provide.
Yes, overgearing allows you to climb higher than your skill level. This isn’t going to fully prevent that, but rather limit it.
Think of it like this:
The tanks gap between skill floor and skill ceiling is 5 cm, the healers gap is 7 cm, and the DPS gap is 50 cm. With this change I wan’t to reduce the DPS gap between skill floor and skill ceiling to be more in line with the tanks and healers. If the gap were to become 10 cm that would be good enough for me personally.
Again, depends entirely on the numbers. But a 630+ player should absolutely have an easier time than any 619 player in 10s, just as it is today.
I’m sorry, but you’ll have to explain more. I’m not fully understanding what you’re saying.
It just seems like this will only really target groups the first few weeks of the season, while having largely no effect later on.