The pre-patch changes made major overhauls to those points though. Not having to stop and cast PoM is such a big change.
In PvP I don’t even really cast direct heals at all anymore. I’m on my feet all the time running around casting Cardinal Mending PoM and instant casts (including PWS) and I keep people alive like that. This wasn’t a thing before where you were basically a turret that stood there chain casting Greater Heals.
PvP survivability shot up though the roof with getting PW:S back and the new talent Divine Ascension is pretty memes when you pop it on melee. If somebody jumps on me I just fly up in the air and channel Divine Hymn. I haven’t done arenas this expansion, but I feel like Holy would be fun to play right now, and probably as competitive as Disc because I can hit people with a brick to the face with Holy Fire + amulet essence double crit combos.
The mobility increase translated to M+ as well, mainly just around PoM, and survivability went up with being able to PW:S yourself or others to mitigate lethal damage. My overall damage went up because of SW:P which lets me just tab target apply it to everything in the trash pull even if I’m not in a position to start throwing smites. You can keep it up basically all the time and at the end of the dungeon it’ll be like 600k dmg from SW:P alone.
Our baseline heals went up a lot because I’m seeing less of a direct impact from Echo of Light than I used to be. For raiding that new Prayer Circle talent is just amazing. You can dump off 3-4 quick cast PoH’s and it’s mainly where the healing increase came from with Holy.
So I don’t know if people are just wearing beer goggles, but I don’t see how these obvious changes aren’t visible.
@Caithyra You’re definitely right about that. I wish it was just a bit cleaner to execute.
Does the class need a redesign. No. Could it benefit from some deep thought and streamlining. Yes. Otherwise we kind of just don’t change at all and get boring and more APM choreful. (actions perminute)
You’re defending the spec. I don’t really have an issue with the current power level of Holy, I think people are sleeping on it. We’re having a philosophical debate about whether or not the creation of a functioning, interesting spec in World of Warcraft requires a mountain of keybinds.
I want to be clear here to. I like the Holy spec, even as it is. I played a lot of Holy during EP. It was great to get AoTC on holy I felt like I got OK at the game for real. I’m probably going into SL maining holy, offspeccing shadow, and having a lil pocket sham for fun boredomtimes and a fresh look at the game apart from my favorite class. I offspecced disc a little towards the end and found it fun, but it could just not pump out the raid wide healing that I liked from Holy itself. I think thats the real charm the class has for me. Is it sorta EZmode and only 1 dimension of the class ya. I also had a set of Azerite equipment to DPS and play in only holy and I did a lot of worldquesting pulling 20-30k DPS on holy, I didn’t use it much in instances because it wasn’t super practical, but I feel I really got to know the class well in BfA.
That honestly comes down to each person because nobody plays with the same key or mouse bindings.
For me I’ve had my main hotbar friend/harm macro’d so 1 is holy fire/heal, 2 is circle of healing/chastise, 3 is smite/flash heal, 4 is pom/sw:p, 5 is renew/sw:d, 6 is PW:S, etc. I’ve had that same load out since WOTLK, but those are the only buttons that are macro’d.
You’ve externally sourced 6 heal/harm macros in an attempt to get your interface halfway functional. Why are you even debating the notion that the default is clunky?
It’s because that’s how it’s been since the game came out in 2005 and I’ve been pushing those same buttons for so long they’re permanently engraved in my brain.
Like: if it’s too many buttons then don’t play the class or spec? There’s plenty of others including Disc which use half as many buttons to heal.
Cool, muscle memory. I have muscle memory too. The existence of muscle memory, once again, does nothing to debate or argue the central question of “does a game need tons of keybinds and abilities to create complexity or compelling gameplay”. I have no idea why you can’t or won’t address that question, instead sending us off into the weeds about whether or not Holy is in a good place, whether or not you remember where Flash Heal is bound since 2005, or whether or not I think “keybinds are hard” and thus should play another class, spec or game because god forbid we could ever discuss notions by which this one could potentially be improved.
We all want a punchy, fun, complex spec to play. There’s more than one way to get there. You do not NEED tons of abilities and buttons to push to create complexity, or make an interesting spec. That’s it. That’s all there is to it. Either establish it’s NECESSARY, or just admit it’s not and we can both go on with our days.
At the end of the day it’s up to the developers to design the class how they want. I’ve just been playing the game as its been presented before me. It’s like saying WASD is too complex for movement even though that’s what’s been used for 20 years now as the industry standard.
I don’t really know what else to say other than WoW isn’t a game like GW:2 where you have 6 buttons to push total. You either adapt or you don’t. Holy Priests have a lot of buttons: more than the other healers. It’s not going to change anytime soon because they’ve had 15 years already and a half-dozen expansions to change it.
Just from my perspective they’ve dumbed the game down a lot compared to what it used to be in terms of how many buttons you needed to push.
Gotcha. The game has always had lots of buttons to push, this isn’t like games with less buttons to push, they’re unlikely to make the game have less buttons to push because it’s always had buttons to push.
Oh, and “WASD” is apparently complex now.
This has been super elucidating. Thanks for your searing insights into game design and class complexity. What time well spent this was.
I legit thinking you’re just trolling because I’ve never seen anyone actually complain that macros or having more than 4 buttons to push are too complex for them. o_o
I’ve never said anything of the sort, and the fact this is what you’ve parsed from an hour of conversation speaks volumes about the level of comprehension here.
Because that’s stupid. Never in my life have i needed these features. Ever. Nobody does. I only ever needed target arena123, target enemy123 and focus macros for pvp. And i had to buy gaming mouse for that. And i am the same filthy casual m+6 player like you. Optimize your stupid keybinds instead of asking the game to change around your stupid keybinds.
Lot of real (sorta super) angry posts after I acknowledged your guyses way of doing things was NOT wrong… look i’m not exactly fishing for an apology or anything, yalls got valid points. And we have differing opinions. This is great. It’s goood for multiple ways of seeing and doing things to be seen, heard, and viable.
anyway this post has devolved into bash the OP for playing the way OP does and hate on anything more or less different from the way things are now. (or maybe were or werent for a fraction of the userbase in WoTLK-MOP), Mop was a wonderful expac btw. I would rather the devs focus on story and new art assets sorta in my heart of hearts, but I also want to address and acknowledge how many buttons there actually are and how much it takes to adapt tot hat change, wheter you bind more keys, use mousovers, or healharms macros (whicha re cool btw, I am considering that for 4 spells!) - however it will take a lot for me to adapt to that, probably more than just binding a few more keys and droping my G.N.E.R.D.S. button.
I am just trying to be objective
I get it. I have a traumatic brain injury too, its why I actually have a lot of excess time to devote to this game. Despite all the adversity (including the excess # of buttons) I drive through and handle life pretty well. Ya’lls input is greatly appreciated. My mind has not really changed. I want to assure you the addition of 6 more buttons or so did not ruin my fun completely. It just made me go “Woa” in a keanu way. Maybe try posting after a cup of cofee? (i am downing mine right now)
I feel like ya’ll are excellent people, thanks for bein in the 'verse.
Close but not accurate.
In terms of “class” and not “spec” specific abilities, we got…
lvl 62 = Shadow Word: Death
lvl 64 = Binding Heal
lvl 66 = Shadow Fiend
lvl 68 = Prayer of Mending
lvl 70 = Mass Dispel
I think we got a another rank of Shadow Word: Death at 68 or 70 as well but cant recall exactly.
In WOTLK we got…
lvl 75 = Mind Sear
lvl 80 = Divine Hymm
lvl 80 = Hymm of Hope
I agree.
Not an expert in healing in general but I think at base we need core (Healing) spells to fit the following…
No cooldown
Single Target fast cast expensive mana cost heal
Flash Heal
Single Target slow cast cheap mana cost heal
Greater Heal
Area of Effect Healing
Prayer of Healing
Cooldown
Single Target Healing over time
(Instant cast version) Prayer of Mending + Leaving a renew after jump
Long cooldown defensive healing
Divine Hymm
Power Word: Shield
Also, remove Hymm of Hope / Symbol of Hope w/e. That is a dumb spell to channel just to get mana back. That’s boring. Give Shadow Fiend back with its baseline mana regen and perhaps talents that add further interactions in the form of procs or chance of procs each time he hits.
Everything else should be a talent to add or modify healing spells. Things like the Holy Words should be a talent option imo where you pick the Holy Word you want and all your “casting” spells interact in reducing the CD of just the 1 Holy Word spell you picked from talent.
Examples of Bloat and what to do about it…
Baseline
Healing Spells
Holy Word Spells
Holy Word: Chastise
Move to Talent (Same row as other Holy Words)
Holy Word: Serenity
Move to Talent (Same row as other Holy Words)
Holy Word: Sanctify
Move to Talent (Same row as other Holy Words)
Single Target
Flash Heal
No change
Heal
No change
Healing over Time
Renew
Remove
Prayer of Mending (Kind of)
No change
Area of effect
Prayer of Healing
No change
Circle of Healing
Remove, move to talents
I am on the fence on this one. It’s a nice spell to use on the move. But I just think its more bloat than core. I think either remove outright or move to talents.
Holy Nova
Remove, make PvP talent? Honestly, what is the point of this spell besides doing low level content and PvP?
Long Cooldowns
Guardian Spirit (Single Target CD)
No change
Divine Hymm (AOE CD)
No change
Symbol of Hope
Remove
Result = 8 spells removed baseline
Holy Word: Chastise
Holy Word: Serenity
Holy Word: Sanctify
Renew
Holy Nova
Circle of Healing
Symbol of Hope
Talents
Additional “non-passive” abilities
Angelic Feather
Make baseline? I am unsure here, I would always pick this but at the same time, I think blizzard see’s this as such an higher skill to use (when you look at everyone new and old that play this game) that I think they want to leave this as a choice with talents.
Shining Force
Remove, make PvP talent? Not sure here, it seems only useful in PvP. Thoughts?
Binding Heal
Remove, bake/make this talent to apply the effect into Flash Heal and Heal instead. Stupid to have yet another button.
Divine Star
No change. Its interesting mechanically.
Divine Star
No change. Its interesting mechanically.
Apotheosis
Tuning will need adjusting to work with less Holy Word focus.
Holy Word: Salvation
Cooldown and cooldown reduction tuning needed if we move all the baseline Holy Words into Talents.
Talent Changes
Psychic Voice
Baseline, replace with Holy Word: Serenity
Censure
Replace with Holy Word: Chastise and baseline talent effect.
Shining Force
Replace with Holy Word: Sanctify
Result = 2-3 spells removed from talents
Angelic Feather
Shining Force
Binding Heal
Conclusion:
Total 10-11 spells removed, yet the spec still functions the same in having a spell to use for each situation given.
Also, remove Hymm of Hope / Symbol of Hope w/e. That is a dumb spell to channel just to get mana back. That’s boring. Give Shadow Fiend back with its baseline mana regen and perhaps talents that add further interactions in the form of procs or chance of procs each time he hits.
I think choosing when to channel symbol of hope in over the course of a raid fight is way more interesting than a click-it-and-forget spell like shadow fiend. Having a channeled ability makes sense for holy’s playstyle but I wish it had a bit more utility to offset the channel.
My perspective is along the lines of using a channeled ability like that just makes your class/spec stop playing. A long CD channel just get back a resource seems unnecessary. I can get on board for Divine Hymm because it can cause things like make your Prayer of mending bounce each tick etc or something that makes it interesting and you need a oh crap button as needed. But a channeled mana back ability just seems to take up space for the sake of taking up space when you should top people off / dps. Also, if its only used during an intermission phase or during downtime, then that further highlights the needlessness of it.
As for Shadowfiend, I think its a great ability to add plenty of further interactions as well as it being a shared spell with Disc and Shadow.
It can have baseline or talent/conduit/legendary interactions specific for holy. I can see that way more interactive and interesting compared to a channeled mana back spell.
My perspective is along the lines of using a channeled ability like that just makes your class/spec stop playing.
That’s an excellent point! I have definitely felt that way on other classes (like with Resto Druid after they took away being able to move while casting Tranq) but something about channeled spells/long cast times on Hpriest just… feel right? I love holy’s reactive playstyle and there is something really satisfying about planting your feet and being all “Okay, stuff is going down, time to break out the big spells” and casting a channel - but you’re absolutely right that Symbol of Hope is no where near as satisfying to cast as Hymn.
Also, if its only used during an intermission phase or during downtime, then that further highlights the needlessness of it.
Also a really good point. I would love to see something like a personal (or even group-wide) DR component with hymn to give me a reason to think about pressing it when there isn’t downtime - or at least, give me a bit more incentive to not wait until intermission if I really need mana. Would be interesting in a 5man environment where I almost never find myself casting SoH.
It can have baseline or talent/conduit/legendary interactions specific for holy. I can see that way more interactive and interesting compared to a channeled mana back spell.
I think my biggest concern with this is that I could see it turn a “while your shadowfiend is out, you get extra passive reduction to your holy words” which imo isn’t fun. I would LOVE something like “while shadowfiend if out you do more damage/your damage spells don’t cost mana”
Free or reduced cost of mana for spells is a nice passive.
But I was thinking more along the lines of…
Shadowfiends successful hits reduces the cooldown on your Holy Word spells by 5 sec.
Shadowfiends attacks have a 50% chance to make your next Flash heal cost zero mana and become instant cast.
While Shadowfiend is active, your Holy Word spells are granted an additional charge and a charge is reset upon each successful attack.
While Shadowfiend is active, your single target healing spells heal for 30% to all nearby friendly targets as a shadowed version.
Stuff like that.
Point being is that Shadowfiend is a really good interaction in that its for a limited time with a decent cooldown and its interaction is kind of “off the GCD” in that his attacks have no bearing on your casting GCD and so for a short limited time, you can get crazy interactions from him just existing and/or attacking granting you a passive “aura” or “procs” on hit.
Lots of potential for Shadowfiend vs a channeled spell that makes you just stop playing lol.
Edit:
Also, could being back Light Well and it can have the same/different interactions of Shadowfiend or replace the Shadowfiend functionality entirely in that Shadowfiend becomes Light Well when you swap between specs.
Light Well can “pulse” at the same rate as Shadowfiend would “attack”. The “Pulse” would just do pulsing AOE healing to nearby targets.
Also, Some additional idea on lightwell interaction I posed on the feedback forum.
Similar to Beacon of Light from Holy Pal…
1-3 min CD where you place the lightwell at X location and it duplicates all your single target healing to all (or up to 5) targets within 20-30 range. Lasts 10 sec.
Act like a “well” in that you “fill it up”.
You fill it up with any overhealing you do and it “smart” heals anyone that needs it within range and its “bursts” out the rest of its “well” of healing in the form of a HoT to everyone within range with the HoT amount split per target it is applied on.
Overhealing transformed into Absorbs
Any overhealing you do will “fill” the well and when its duration ends, it applies an absorb shield to all targets split evenly from the “filled” well of overhealing.
Notes:
Maybe the amount the well puts out can be x2 what you put in.
Maybe it can apply a +% healing gained for X duration when its duration expires.
Maybe it can put out an Aura while its active that reduces damage taken by X%.
Or heck, change Symbol of Hope to be a “Mana Well”. We can have a Light Well and a Mana Well with unique interactions.
Though… Mana well might just seem like Mana Tide Totem lol.