I am so tired of the “subversion of expectations” freaking storytelling. It has become cringe.
Prior devs have made WoW’s cosmology so grey, it lacks any exciting pigmentation or meaningful conflict. “Balance” just becomes an eighth force vying for supremacy against the other seven.
The avowed protectors of Azeroth and creators of countless defensive measures intended to preserve life?
“GOTCHA! THEY’RE ACTUALLY EVIL!” Agents of growth and renewal who help sustain mortal existence
“WRONG! THEY’VE GOT TO BE KEPT IN CHECK. EXCEPT WHEN THEY DON’T!” Beings on a holy mission to spread hope and protect life across the cosmos through a shared faith that literally stands against darkness
“NAH, THEY’RE DEFINITELY EVIL CONTROL FREAKS. RIGHT AND WRONG? PFFT!”
Genocidal race of walking corpses whose starting zone quests include slaughtering refugees and murdering farmers?
“THEY’RE THE REAL GOOD GUYS AND JUST MISUNDERSTOOD. TRUST ME BRO!” (imo Forsaken would scratch both the “good monster race” itch and subverted expectations if they WEREN’T cannibalistic war criminals as a faction, but here we are) Blind, incel magic addicted half-demon who kills anyone that comes between him and his fix and had to be retconned twice to even look heroic
“HE’S THE HERO WHO KILLS ALL HIS ENEMIES, DOESN’T AFRAID OF ANYTHING AND KNOWS THE WAY!”
Those earlier writers (and a few current writers) seem to have confused “subvert expectations” with “bad is good and good is bad”.
Then find another series? Warcraft has been doing things its own way since WC3 where its biggest hero was an orc, the not-drow were mostly good, and the biggest villain was a former human paladin.
A kid born after WC3 came out can already legally drink (damn, I’m old). Its in the series DNA at this point. Algalon and the Scarlets aren’t new lore developments.
I think a legit question is, when does subversion become self-sabotaging? A certain amount (WC3) is a healthy shakeup that creates an exciting new perspective on established tropes.
But beyond that, is more subversion always better? If not, where’s the dividing line between when it’s helpful and when it goes over the top?
Does an equivalent new level of subversion within the same franchise need to keep happening on a regular basis to keep the story relevant and stop audiences from becoming complacent? Or does that work to undermine the initial subversiveness by unpicking the cohesiveness of the world through constant recontextualization?
I don’t know the answers to these questions, but I think they’re worth asking.
Go play Vanilla, Wrath or Cata classic than. Nothing else to really say. And I’m not sure anyone wants to have the same old tired arguements…again. For the millionth time
They shouldn’t subvert expectations/tropes just to do it, but these complaints are mostly about things that are absolutely nowhere near new to the series.
The forsaken have had sympathetic members along with the comically evil ones. The Titans have been sketchy since Wrath and we’ve fought evil light wielders since vanilla even ignoring that Arthas himself was a light wielder until the moment he spookified himself
And Illidan payed for his crimes in Outland by dying for them. And as far as the cosmic chart goes, it’s far superior to what we originally had. Which wasn’t much of anything beyond Light users are bestest bois and Void/Shadow super evil
Not everything we kill or oppose in the game is objectively evil. Which is weird to think about, and runs the risk of a big debate over morality. I just personally view the Titans/Light/Nature in the same vein as Murlocs or Kobolds, friendly or hostile depending on the circumstances, but with their own agendas that might either be compatible or run contrary to ours.
The stance of everything being “we oppose it so it MUST be evil” seems to be reductive at best, or disingenuous at worst.
At the end of the day a lot of the things the PCs are asked to do are for someone’s material gain/comfort rather than self defense or higher minded/benevolent reasons.
Its not a big deal if the cosmic forces, even the ones aligned with us frequently, are similar
Revealing shining golden crusaders as cruel hypocrites isn’t a subversion. Maybe once upon a time it would have been, but we have long, looong since crossed that threshold. Nobody gilds their armor unless they have something to hide.
Tirion Fordring was the subversion, by virtue of being a genuinely good man, even when his order was telling him to purge the unclean.
And on a personal note, do you not get tired on this, Thadeus? “The Light should only be portrayed as good” has been your song on this forum for a while now. At some point you either need to adjust your angle or move on.
Subversion is just a tool at a writer’s disposal. It’s not inherently any better or worse than any other tool and still needs to be used well to achieve worthwhile results.
He was a legitimately good man who suffered due to being unwilling to look the other way and not act on his convictions. Yet the story doesn’t paint Uther and the Alliance as monsters for this, since their concerns weren’t really unjustified either.
In the end he loses his son to the actual hypocritical monsters who weren’t just unwilling to learn and have sympathy for the alien, the enemy, but were so far gone that they were oppressing and killing their neighbors and allies for being inhuman.
The goal with the cosmology bit was not to make the cosmic forces ‘good’ or ‘evil’, it was to give them inherent natures that are alien to mortals. They are by nature very two dimensional compared to mortals, with a specific set of compulsions they try to fulfill. Same logic behind the idea that fire can cook your food, or cook you—Fire does not care, all it does is burn. Order brings structure, Light brings unity, etc. It is more the expressions of that core compulsion that matter than the forces themselves.
The Forsaken are so weirdly bipolar because two camps wanted VERY different outcomes. Metzen envisioned a sympathetic group of break away scourge who struggled to regain their humanity despite their undeath and all the messed up desires (like cannibalization) it brings. Others wanted straight up evil cackling Scourge v2.
I think it adds more depth to the story at least. Giving the cosmic forces actual agendas that might not be in entirely our best interests is actually a GOOD thing.
