To people still stuck on nochanges #BuffMemes

WoW Classic WoW Classic General Discussion
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Instead of saying the same black and while, double-digit IQ point that any change to the game instantly makes it as bad as Retail, how about we stop thinking in extremes and expect more from Blizz and have them treat SoM like any other live online game? OSRS is still the same old Runescape, OG Runescape players still play it, except it gets some updates for new things to do, keeping things fresh. Don’t people want to avoid playing the same stale, solved end-game meta for years on end? People that are stuck with this weird inflexibility with vanilla are keeping the game stale and shooting themselves and the rest of classic players in the foot. Blizz doesn’t even need to make new content for the first SoM, they can do the raid buffs that they’re doing, no WBs, but also make balance, ret, prot, ele, enh, and spriest worth playing.

If they make hybrids have mana for longer than 15 seconds and also not be terrible in raids, is that a bad thing? Or is having a balance druid preform decently instead of not at all just as bad as raid finder, garrisons, level 60 boosts, etc? Let’s expect Blizzard to give us vanilla with a new coat of paint from time to time. Every season they add and tweak stuff while keeping the game in tact.

Help me understand how a change like, enhance shaman’s melee crits reduce shocks’ mana cost by x%, and stormstrike lowered to a 10 sec CD would ruin your experience leveling up, doing dungeons, farming mats, or killing Rag? Wouldn’t that just open up more diversity of choice in what to play as a raider? How is that bad, and how can you respond to that with “go to retail,” as if that’s on the same level as retail?

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there are still nochangers around? Maybe a couple of boomers but everyone is on the changes spectrum somewhere

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Yes, and they’ve learned nothing. They think the game is untouchable. They’d probably love to play level 1-1 in Super Mario Bros on repeat for years on end.

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No changers have fallen off significantly since classic came out in 2019. They either quit entirely, or learned quickly that changes were a necessity.

You do see some dedicated die hard no changers around these parts though, but they represent virtually nobody at this point.

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I think the biggest issue is people don’t realize how big the gap is between meme specs and meta specs. I think if they actually saw the raw data of Meta vs. Meme with world buffs and without world buffs they’d not care at all if memes got buffed.

I remember this 1 absolute BiS Ret Paladin in Phase 6. Checked his logs, and he was pulling 700 dps with world buffs. Meanwhile all the rogues and warriors in his guild on the same fight were pulling 1200-1600 dps. That’s with world buffs. Warriors will still do 1k w/o them, while a ret paladin will pull 400 w/o them.

I don’t get why people are ok with a 400 to 600 dps disparity, that much dps is exactly why stacking 1-2 classes is a thing, and you only bring 1 meme for their unique buff.

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As long as we keep track of the “base” game and can revert any bad changes back to that or start each season making changes off of the base game I think this works.

What we don’t want is the slow creep of changes that eventually just loses all the original appeal after 5 seasons

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I’m not against the memes being buffed, but I am still concerned about balance. Especially for PvP.

For starters the talent trees in Vanilla are rather small, and giving mana efficiency buffs to say Ret or Prot Paladins means that Holy Paladins likely can still pick it up with minimal or no sacrifices.

Now you could make it things that a Holy Paladin would be less interested in. To take the OP’s example, something like “Melee crits reduce the mana cost of Seals of Righteousness/Crusader/Command and Judgment by X%” clearly wouldn’t impact raid healing. It would however impact Ret Paladin PvP, giving them notably more mana to expend on healing which even without healing gear isn’t anything to scoff at.

Keep in mind that with TBC and WotLK as hybrid non-healer specs got buffed up, they shifted more and more towards a design where your character was just terrible at everything and your spec made you okay/good at one thing.

This is less the case in Vanilla where classes are more weighted towards their intended main role. Sure a Ret Paladin doesn’t have the longevity to heal a raid, or even for more than like 20 seconds if they’re in DPS gear but they can still throw out some heals in PvP and they’re not a joke either.

I’m not gonna say it’s impossible to address all this, but I Don’t think it’s as simple as “just buff the meme specs”.

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Starting your thread with a blanket insult is definitely a productive method to make a point.

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If you want to change classes, you may as well host with the crusade patch which does all of the class changes.

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That’s not the only spectrum people on this forum are on.

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I disagree. Meta sheep pick their classes because they feel being “top dog” actually means something. It would be “unfair to them” if Blizzard “cheapened their experience” and gave some deadweight meme spec player a boost.

Personally, I couldn’t care less if they boosted ret paladins. I like ret. I play it for the utility and have a blast. There are other players who appreciate that, too. I’ll play with them. Meta sheep can keep being sheep, for all I care.

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What people fail to comprehend is that even if you buff memes, people still aren’t gonna use them. There is no sense in giving a balance Druid mage/lock gear if he can’t mirror their damage. You may think that memes help spread gear around, but it simply does not

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Part of the problem is awful gear itemization (& general design) in Vanilla, that has certain classes chasing cloth or whatever instead of their appropriate “maximum” class armor type (leather, mail, plate). Plus, the class tier sets are useless to many class specs (which is why they likely changed to a token turn-in system in TBC for tier sets).

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I get what you’re saying, but that is the game. It is what it is and it’s replay ability is still there with al of its flaws. The problem is people try to revolve their opinions around raiding, and I am here to tell you the game’s longevity has nothing to do with the raids.

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For me, it’s not about spreading gear around. I play a ret paladin and wear plate. It’d be nice to not be told to kill myself when trying to participate in group events.

For the meta-sheep, “optimization” > fun.

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But you can play ret in tbc though. The reason you’re even considering coming back to classic fresh, is because you had fun

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I probably won’t be playing SoM. In fact, there’s a pretty good chance I won’t carry on to WotLK, even though that was the expansion I was most excited about revisiting. The mentality of today’s playerbase is pretty disgusting.

If I were to play SoM, however, I’d most likely roll a ret paladin, as I really enjoy the class. I’m sure there are many others who feel the same way.

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I’m with you there, I played tbc for like 2 months I think. I don’t like the futuristic space feeling, it’s corny to me. I will play wotlk most likely, I have enough gear to level when it launches. I won’t play SoM at 12months. Not a chance

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go ahead. ret paladins are a fine class. you just won’t be anywhere near the top of dps for raiding, which is fine

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I understood no changes when it first came out. Then I realized that players are breaking the game big time. Yes blizzard is also at fault for stuff like not banning bots along with other things.

I played classic for about 2 months before I quit. Got to 60 on warlock and geared out in MC gear/cleared BWL. I watched as players just burnt through content making wow feel like a rat race. So I quit and waited for TBC.

I knew pve in TBC would still be a rat race and people would raid log. I hoped pvp would give me a good option. However honor is too slow to gain/que time stuff for horde/ AFK players and bots. Let’s also not forget how arena season 1 was cut short to give the PVE players more content.

Even if I wanted to start playing TBC again I wouldn’t be able to. People are raid logging and not doing heroics. I never thought I would ever say this but classic needs a LFG or LFD tool. I know a lot of people say it destroyed wow and communication in wow….from my experience in classic I hardly communicated with anyone even in instances. My MC/BWL guild was just that a raid guild log in once a week spend 2 hours clearing and everyone logs off.

I just want to play but I feel the game is broken. I know lots of people blame blizzard but I honestly feel it’s both blizzard and the community.

I have a 6month sub that hasn’t ran out yet. I haven’t played or posted in a while. I miss playing wow but retail isn’t fun, classic wasn’t fun due to players. So I’ve played others games.

I think retail and classic both need major changes and for very different reasons.

I started to think about playing wow again for SOM but 12 months is too short making the rat race even worse. I like what they are doing by adding health to bosses and making it harder, but I just feel it’s going to make the meta BS even worse. They need to do some class balances and fix meme specs, while also figuring out a way to help people find groups if they start late. I saw they are taking steps to stop mage boosting in some instances.

All in all I don’t play classic for 3 reasons.

#1 It’s over run with bots and blizzard doesn’t care. Also don’t tell me it’s cause 58 boost…classic had bots all over the place. Yea 58 boost didn’t help it.

#2 Players are too focused on meta/raid logging leaving the rest of the game to rot.

#3 pvp is beyond broken the change for hvh was a good idea but if blizzard wants to make arena seasons shorter they need to increase honor and conquest gains.

Also part of why they say “go retail” is they want the game to be the exact same. They understand the easy route or best items to the game. To them it’s like playing Fable or Knights of the old republic for the 10th time. They enjoy breaking the game because they know all the best items and classes. They don’t want changes to ruin that fun cause playing a broken game is fun. I know I still enjoy playing older games. I know all the locations to items that make me OP. The problem is MMOs are way more complex than a single player game. So everyone doing the same thing breaks multiple parts of the game at 1 time. This is something they can’t grasp because they are too focused on meta and not the bigger picture.

I use to think #nochanges was for “nostalgia” then I realized it wasn’t. it was just to cheese the game. I think for people like myself it was for nostalgia but that nostalgia soon got stomped on by other players. Classic is completely different than what the original was and it’s player fault.

Also part of why TBC is struggling is due to the fact that it had nothing other than raids. So it’s perfect for raid loggers. Most of the pvp community I think went back to p-servers or quit altogether. I’m one of the pvpers that just quit. I don’t trust p-servers and never have. I just know the people that enjoy pvp tend to play on them due to blizzard not caring about pvp.

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