Title: A Serious Issue with Dungeon Vote Kick System and Player Toxicity

[Primerate-sulfuras]

@Karvalli-proudmoore

Again, this is not the American legal system, and the VtK tool isn’t a tool of justice

At no point did I come even close to suggesting VTK was subject to the laws of the American legal system so this reply makes no sense.

@Snowpine-ghostlands

They don’t need to defend it. They’re within their right to use the VTK system for any reason.

My proposal leaves them the ability to use it for whatever they wish and affords them the opportunity to ignore any attempts to defend their actions. If someone asks they can just ignore them.

But they should feel some sense that its a defensible action to impact another users gameplay so heavily.

@Snowpine-ghostlands

No, because there is no clear victim.

Continuing to use your court analogy - sure there is, its the other people wanting them removed. The people saying ‘yeah vote kick him’ are saying that their gameplay is negatively affected by this user here. They’re clearly making the case that this person is hurting their gameplay.

@Snowpine-ghostlands

The jury analogy wasn’t perfect, it was to make a point. We can ignore it, if you prefer, but trying to force it to work with defendants and prosecutors isn’t going to work, either.

Yeah, if I were you I’d stop using it too.

[Teranin-skywall (Teranin)]

A simple concept which is great when possible to apply across the board. But when it isn’t? Like I said, murky, and hard to call in one direction or another.

Life and society … and above all else the internet rarely are that simple, and that’s a part of where we’re clashing. The other becomes at what point does a pattern become recognized? or should it?

I appreciate the ideal you support at least, even if I won’t follow it myself for the moment. But eh, that’s fine, we can call this done. A reasonable discussion at least.

[Karvalli-proudmoore]

@Cäpslöck-proudmoore

And, even if it were, Jury Nullification is a thing that exists.

Unrelated, apologize in advance, don’t actually want to get into it, but…

I wonder if we’re going to see a very high profile example of this sometime relatively soon, bringing it to the forefront of societal conversation

[Cäpslöck-proudmoore]

The last big case that was debatably Nullification that I can think of off the top of my head is OJ.

[Karvalli-proudmoore]

@Primerate-sulfuras

At no point did I come even close to suggesting VTK was subject to the laws of the American legal system so this reply makes no sense.

It does because you keep trying to relate it to this idea that there’s an accused and there needs to be a defense of the accusation.

[Snowpine-ghostlands]

@Primerate-sulfuras

My proposal leaves them the ability to use it for whatever they wish and affords them the opportunity to ignore any attempts to defend their actions. If someone asks they can just ignore them.

For no gain.

@Primerate-sulfuras

But they should feel some sense that its a defensible action to impact another users gameplay so heavily.

There is no need to defend something you’ve done within your right to do so. Inviting it is inviting retribution. It’s that simple.

@Primerate-sulfuras

Continuing to use your court analogy

Why? So you can waste more time going down a dead-end rabbit hole?

@Primerate-sulfuras

Yeah, if I were you I’d stop using it too.

That was implied. You continued, because it’s the only avenue you have to argue your point.

Your idea invites retributive behavior.

[Dracarian-medivh]

if it’s solved half the toxicity that is currently being experienced, it would be worth it. although I feel like the funnier thing to do would be to remove the vote kick and then leave the desert buff as a quitter punishment and forced anybody that doesn’t want to run with somebody else to be locked out for 30 minutes after they leave the dungeon. then again it’s not my circus and not my clowns because I don’t have this problem in conquest of Azeroth.

[Primerate-sulfuras]

@Dracarian-medivh

I feel like people were a lot less likely to be a-holes when they were responsible for their own server actions

Personal responsibility is anathema to most wow players.

@Karvalli-proudmoore

He doesn’t need to answer to a tribunal for why he initiated it.

@Snowpine-ghostlands

There’s a reason individual jurors’ decisions are not public information.

[Dracarian-medivh]

I gave up playing with randoms years ago lol. The minute they introduced LFG, I was done. I think I’ve been in maybe a dozen random groups in the last 15 years. If I don’t run with friends, I run with Guild mates otherwise I just do delves and follower dungeons. In fact, the last two characters, I leveled I did almost exclusively and follower dungeons just to avoid dragon flight and other humans.

[Snowpine-ghostlands]

How I feel about your idea and how I conduct myself aren’t necessarily related.

If someone asks me why I initiate a vote kick, I’ll tell them. I don’t care. That shouldn’t be an expectation from people.

[Primerate-sulfuras]

@Snowpine-ghostlands

For no gain.

The gain here is more careful consideration of when someone should be kicked.

Attach your name to something if you want to ruin someone elses gameplay for 30 minutes.

@Snowpine-ghostlands

There is no need to defend something you’ve done within your right to do so. Inviting it is inviting retribution. It’s that simple.

I wouldn’t force users to defend it. I would however encourage them to make more defendable decisions.

@Snowpine-ghostlands

That was implied. You continued, because it’s the only avenue you have to argue your point.

I agreed with you, for once. Glad you’ve moved past it.

@Karvalli-proudmoore

It does because you keep trying to relate it to this idea that there’s an accused and there needs to be a defense of the accusation

Another user started the analogy and I continued it to it’s logical comparison. Even if I had started it, however, it would still apply because I’m talking about aspirational values that should pertain to both domains.

[Karvalli-proudmoore]

@Dracarian-medivh

I gave up playing with randoms years ago lol. The minute they introduced LFG, I was done. I think I’ve been in maybe a dozen random groups in the last 15 years.

So you don’t even have firsthand anecdotal evidence that this is a problem, let alone any kind of legitimate evidence, but you’re still here peddling it?

[Dracarian-medivh]

I find it humorous that people are absolutely going at each other over a functionality that blizzard doesn’t care about. vote kicking is never gonna change. The penalty is never gonna change. Blizzard has literally gotten lazy and is now forcing the inmates to police themselves. This is why Project Ascension has a superior version of this game.

[Snowpine-ghostlands]

@Primerate-sulfuras

The gain here is more careful consideration of when someone should be kicked.

If the idea isn’t to invite retribution, what would cause more consideration about the system?

@Primerate-sulfuras

Attach your name to something if you want to ruin someone elses gameplay for 30 minutes.

Ah, right. Because your idea is to invite retribution, and you know it.

@Primerate-sulfuras

I wouldn’t force users to defend it.

No, you just want to create squabbles about it. Trust me, people will do that in their own time when votes like this fail.

@Primerate-sulfuras

I agreed with you, for once. Glad you’ve moved past it.

Wish you were capable of similar self reflection.

[Dracarian-medivh]

no, I know for a fact it is because most of my guild mates and half of my friends complain about it all the time. Which is why I avoid it like the friggin plague. I’m just not stupid enough to engage in it like most of you people. I take their word for it

[Snowpine-ghostlands]

@Dracarian-medivh

I’m just not stupid enough to engage in it like most of you people. I take their word for it

Glad you’re in a good mood. “You’re all idiots, I’m the smart one” is a hell of a start to this discussion.

[Karvalli-proudmoore]

@Snowpine-ghostlands

“You’re all idiots, I’m the smart one” is a hell of a start to this discussion.

That’s his go-to in literally every discussion he gets involved in.

[Liolang-daggerspine]

@Primerate-sulfuras

@Snowpine-ghostlands

Encouraging retributive behavior is not a good idea.

It doesn’t encourage it. If someone wants to be rude in chat afterwards that’s already outlawed and can be actioned. We don’t outlaw drinking just because someone might drive drunk - we outlaw drunk driving.

What it does do is make attempts to disrupt other peoples gameplay (kicking) more transparent. If it’s really warranted you won’t mind having your name attached.

What I find ironic is in this thread no one wants to let anybody know who they are when their vote kicking but when it comes to this forum they want supposedly for everybody’s account information to be showing so that everybody has to be accountable. So evidently we have some contradiction here where on the forum were supposedly supposed to be accountable but in game we don’t have to be accountable LOL

[Acid-area-52]

@Perl-anetheron

Thankfully, this is working as Blizzard intended and designed.

I don’t think Blizzard intended to implement a deserter debuff to players kicked for gearing in a dungeon.
Guess anyone could be a green. What a half-assed lazy response.

[Dracarian-medivh]

that wasn’t aimed at anyone personally that was a response to some jack wagon telling me that my opinion doesn’t matter because I don’t do random cues lol I don’t do random cues because I understand how many friggin morons run that asylum and I decided to avoid it. now, if you wanna start off this evening’s conversation by being offended, I don’t give a damn