Then make TF as rare as the lottery. If you’re going to try to make such a comparison, then I want to see lottery odds. I have a 420-425 TF on 3 of my characters right now… and plenty of regular TF’s. I expect to see at least 1 TF each raid clear (from all loot drops, not for myself personally). That’s not playing the lottery… that’s a flipping expectation of the reward.
When I play the lottery, I don’t expect to win. I expect to simply be burning my money.
Also I’d like to add in response to your post above. I don’t think TF is the only problem when it comes to the gearing system. There are many problems that contribute to overall over-rewarding of the playerbase. I think TF is a contribution to the problem. Other issues are numerous sources of repeatable ilvl 400 loot sources and the massive abundance of M+ rewards relative to other sources. For me, it feels like through all these sources we all rush head long into a heroic - mythic ilvl, then spend the rest of the tier waiting for RNG to smile on us to progress further. Unless you raid mythic that is.
I have to disagree here because any cap means I’m in the same boat as WoD, where I couldn’t progress at all without raiding. Moving the cap just extends it a little. Otherwise when I hit your artificial limit I might as well quit until next patch. Apparently Blizzard got tired of all the casuals doing just that, since if I hit my ceiling 2 months into a 6 month raid tier they lose 66%of my potential sub money. WF/TF exists to extend that to near 100%, which makes both me and blizz happy. I’m sorry it chaps your backside, but until you come up with a system that doesn’t completely stop my progression I can’t get behind your viewpoint.
Just curious, if you don’t raid, do M+ or pvp, why do you want to get more gear when the enemies in the world just scale up with you as you get better gear?
So basically you log in to gamble and hope that you get some form of titanforge? This is exactly what they’re hoping for and it’s pretty unhealthy for the gearing system and game as a whole. I won’t tell you how to play or live your life but there are better ways to go about extending your playtime, a deterministic upgrade system is one of them, it’ll just give you goals to hit rather than you sitting there hoping you get lucky.
I have a hard time believing you stay subbed just to -hope- you get a few good forges, that’s kinda crazy. A deterministic upgrade system would probably keep you for the entire raid tier but also give you actual goals to work towards as opposed to hoping you randomely get lucky.
I truthfully can not see how anyone would prefer to log in and pray to the RNG gods for good luck as opposed to farming currency and planning out upgrades. If they do it correctly, considering you’d wanna upgrade all of your pieces, it’ll keep you around for as long as TF would but with more motivation most likely as you’ll have actual goals to complete.
I don’t care if your a casual getting decent gear, I just care about how we’re obtaining that gear and right now we’re all just hoping we get upgrades rather than actually working towards them. That sucks the engagement right out of gearing for me at least, can’t speak for anyone else. TF is a perk only for those who get lucky whether it’s casuals or hardcore raiders, a determinstic upgrade system is a perk for everyone.
My argument that gambling isn’t how the current gear progression works, period. You gear through content, not Titanforging. You’re a Mythic raider and I’ve done the math on your account. You have a combined total of 96 Mythic and Heroic raiding kills. That’s not counting your M+ progression which seems to be exhaustive (several +18s indicating who knows how many +10s).
With all of that incredible progression you have a sum total of 5 WF/TF. Out of all of that, only 2 are TFs. In probably hundreds of chances at high base ilvl across 5 months of progression the sum total of upgrades you’ve earned through WF/TF is 5 and only 2 of those were mathematically significant (<5%). And now, you’re going to argue this system is the basis for our loot progression system.
K. Mathematically still a non-issue and not a significant portion of gear progression. It’s a tax on stupidity.
Nobody gears through titanforging. You gear through normal means. Titanforging is a perk, but it’s only a perk for those who are lucky. Why have a system like that when you can have a system that allows you to plan out gear upgrades instead? Why hope you get lucky with titanforges when you could farm currency and upgrade each piece of gear instead? Titanforging is the exact same as the old VP upgrade system we had except it took any kind of goal setting and threw it out the window by making the upgrades random at the games discretion instead of the players.
The regular way of gearing is already random enough. You may not get the piece you want for quite some time, it’s dependent on boss drops. Why do we need the next part of that (being the upgrade in ilvl) to be RNG as opposed to deterministic?
You see the gear I have equipped for Jaina progression lol. I am 422 in bags with 7 or 8 425 pieces (can’t remember). Also Mythic raid gear can’t TF so of course someone who regularly does Mythic is going to have less TF than someone who only does M+ and Heroic.
Edit - Also I have 7 pieces of WF/TF gear on, meaning if you take out azerite gear which cant WF/TF, I have more gear that is forged than gear that isn’t forged. The system sucks dude…
Exactly, why should you? I mean, that’s just crazy wasting all that time and energy in raiding when you can get the same thing from a world quest. Stupid really. That’s why I personally love the WF/TF system and wish every day that they keep in the game forever, so I don’t have to raid.
That doesn’t really matter. I’ve been grinding 3 characters through far more M+ than the average player clearing and pugging on Shaman, Rogue, and Warrior since the opening of BoD. I’ve seen maybe 5 TF’s and half of those weren’t upgrades because they were suboptimally itemized according to stat weights.
After 5 months you have more WF/TF than gear that isn’t forged. Why is this surprising? That’s 21 resets not counting M+ grinds. Seriously, how are you not getting how much of a non-issue this is? I’ve shown you with the math and I’ve shown you with your own personal progression. Do you know why you’re using the Mythic WFs? Because despite hundreds of M+ the best WF/TFs aren’t better itemized in all cases except literally 2… over 21 resets. I’d put money on at least 1 of those 425 M+10 TFs actually being a 410 cache that rolled +15. Yet you’re still arguing about how much of a threat this system is to your gearing progression. It’s just not true, I can’t explain this to you any simpler.
You’re going to hit the exact same sort of hard stop whether there is an ilevel cap or not. Unless forging to high levels is such a common occurrence that you can reasonably rely on farming content to advance your gear then you’re going to eventually hit a cap anyway.
Tell me … what is the difference between you proc’ing a 390 item in LFR and you proc’ing one that is 400? In both cases you proc’d a 20+ ilevel forge and the odds of you getting another one of those from the same content for the same slot is slim so whether you get the 390 or the 400 you’re still eventually going to hit a cap where the only way to advance is by doing harder content.
The addition of McForging does almost nothing to help you in that case but it very much hurts people who are trying to actually play the harder content and progress their character at the same time because when you can proc items that are levels above the difficulty you’re doing it removes peoples motivation to try to do them.
A good thing then that that’s exactly how the current system works. Overwhelmingly. And I have far beyond mathematically demonstrated that to you with two modalities. We’re in Dunning-Kruger territory if you still think you have an ideological leg to stand on. You can argue that it “feels” like your gear progression is RNG, but the reality is that it’s mathematically not functioning that way.
A random +5 ilvl bump to keep gearing progression oriented players showing up to raids is a casino trick. It’s a <33% chance for <5% statistical gain on a single slot and those odds are restricted to players that are already soft-capped on ilvl. It’s a way to prey on gullible people like you to keep them spinning on a wheel, convincing themselves of “progression” lamenting the unfairness of a system that literally doesn’t matter demonstrated in aggregate mathematics. If you don’t want to do M+ for TF/WF then don’t. Look at your gear. After 21 resets that mentality has contributed virtually nothing to your net character progression. My god, you’re 418 after 21 resets with at least 15 of the ilvls contributing over 415 coming from the entirely deterministic Azerite system. 422 in suboptimally itemized gear. It’s +7 after 21 resets. Seriously, how are you still arguing this matters?
Look at the top warrior tank on Raiderio who is on MethodNA’s M+ team. He is 420 ilvl and 2/9M lol. He is 20 item levels over the content that he does regularly, but yeah, TF doesn’t matter… Are you trolling?
Sorry, just want to make sure I’m 100% clear on this. You’re assertion is the #1 Mythic+ runner on the #1 Tank meta class has managed to grind out TFs over 5 months of running almost certainly thousands of M+ runs and has managed to make it to 420 the entire gearing progression system is therefore based in WF/TF.
Also, just going to lmao at your assertion that the content the #1 tank in the world for M+ does is optimized for ilvl 410. Do you know how the M+ system even works? Are you trolling?
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. If you only care about gear your time is better off spent not Mythic raiding and instead farming Heroic and M+ for WF/TF. I can replace pretty much every piece of Mythic gear I have on currently with M+ WF/TF, and I have 93 Tidalcores so I’ve run maybe 85 M+ this season?
Also this whole thread is about difficult content not feeling rewarding due to titanforging. Looking at your profile you don’t do any difficult content so why exactly are you in here?
the sheer volume and doggedness of your posts are a sad cry for recognition in a world that takes little notice of your pixilated accomplishments and petty envy in an old and tired video game…
I’m here because I enjoy illuminating hamsters on wheels about the fact that they’re actually not getting anywhere with their mathematically illiterate mindsets.
Just curious, care to explain to the class the item drop system in M+? Since you’re so confident that you can reliably surpass Mythic raiding with this technique, I’m sure you’ve actually learned how the system works so you can best exploit it when you eventually use the “superior” gearing method. This superior gearing method you had to dig up the best player in the world with playtimes thousands of hours above yours to still end up 3 ilvls short of your own stated gear in bags.
![:us:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/us.png?v=6" ":us:")