Doing easy content like world quests and warfronts won’t invalidate normal mode raids though. because if that’s all you do, your WQ rewards will only be around the 370 ilvl area. The only way to push past that level (at least in the short term) is by doing M+, which most people actually do, which in turn increases the ilvl of their WQ and emissary rewards.
Easy content is only in the mindset of the doer. I have been soloing since Vanilla and never once have I ever thought content without a group is easy. I don’t know where people get off pointing at fingers to those that do not group. The only easy mode I see is the people that come to threads like this and blab and point fingers about everything they seem to think is easy. Drama is the easiest thing to avoid when soloing. enuf said~
So is all loot, I don’t see why M+ is special in that regard.
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What if players don’t want do harder content though? Your position is that they just shouldn’t ever get good gear, but you haven’t explained why that should matter to anyone except them.
Your position also ignores the fact that you need to outgear most content if you actually ever want to PUG it. I mean you have next to no chance of being invited to a normal mode raid at 370 ilvl, no matter how good you are.
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Just that it’s rng applied on top of rng. A lot of people are upset with that. It COULD be cool to get the right piece titanforged but even when you get the right piece it kinda feels bad that it’s not titanforged. Or if you get the wrong piece but it titanforges high. There’s 2 ways to disappoint there. I know not all feel that way but many that i play with do.
If you don’t want to do harder content, then by all means, enjoy the content you already do. Gear is a good incentive, It’s not about taking toys away, it’s about many existing toys more shiny. That includes Normal mode gear.
If you want to do harder content, you need to overgear it if you every want to PUG it – which is also why I’d like to add a solo progression option (im mentioned many times by now). I feel that if you need 385 ilvl to do 385 content, there’s an issue. Requirements are always set by the community. If gear is harder to come by, then the requirements typically go down. If good gear is easier to get, requirements go up.
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Yea but it’s RNG as to what it is. Maybe it’s the same raid item that you have already. Maybe it’s the same item as the one you had that war/Titan already.
They’re additive.
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That’s not true though. I have a 386 i-level and I’ve killed exactly 1 boss on normal and completed one +3 mythic dungeon.
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Similar here. I’m 385 and I’ve only completed like 5 or 6 M+ this entire xpac and have one item equipped from M+ and I haven’t killed any raid bosses.
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The raid’s been out 6 weeks though. You didn’t have 386 ilvl at the start of the tier when it would have actually mattered what your gear level was if you wanted to do normal.
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Exactly.
Kal: “I haven’t even set foot in normal and now, 6 weeks later my average ilvl is higher than the gear that drops from normal!”
Me: “So what?”
Kal: “But that breaks progression!”
Me: “Were you ever intending to go into normal? Why didn’t you 6 weeks ago (or whenever you got high enough to contribute to a clear)?”
Kal: chirping crickets
Me: “No progression was broken because you had no intent to do normals anyways. And you’re not higher ilvl than people who have been doing normals for 6 weeks. What’s the problem?”
Kal: silence
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Apologies on the delay, got sidetracked by RL stuff.
I don’t see varying paths to progression as a problem unless those paths aren’t all inclusive (i.e. if raiding couldn’t get weapons or pvp couldn’t get azerite gear). If people want to engage in all paths to item progression, awesome, more power to them. That’s more time they’re spending playing.
For the same reason that gear earned raiding can be used in pvp and why that gear isn’t weaker in world/solo content. Gear is gear. You earn it one place it should function everywhere. Raiders don’t earn gear that is only good in raids, why should casual folks earn gear that’s only good in a portion of the game’s content?
I’ll be honest, I’m surprised they have 400 ilvl gear coming from warfronts or even weekly quests. It doesn’t upset me by any means but I wouldn’t be bothered if they reigned ilvl of content back a bit (to 385 or whatever normal ilvl is in upcoming content is at any given point). But limiting forging puts a sunset timer on content being valuable and I like and play more because it’s not capped.
Then you and I have vastly different experiences in vanilla. I leveled to cap on a pvp server in maybe a week and half. I was raiding inside of a month with a different guild (while I waited for the rest of my guild to catch up). Getting to cap wasn’t the game, being on the bleeding edge was. But that was a different day for me. I was curious because there are multiple people who claim they don’t play but are waiting for classic in this thread and it boggles my mind that people would spend so much time arguing about a game they don’t play when what they claim they want is on the horizon. In your case it seems you prefer the old progression philosophy and I was wondering how that weighed for you in context of the gameplay or other changes that have happened over the years.
Everybody is upset when something doesn’t WF/TF for them or when it does for somebody they feel is undeserving of good RNG.
Did you just call someone that really? Wow.
I urge people to actually go google the bolded term and see what pops up.
If i was to even link the definition of that term, i would be banned… and rightfully the ban would be warranted.
Of course you will say you never meant anything of it…because it is the whole idea of using that term… to avoid it being offensive… but it is a well known term. I would have a hard time believing that you do not know the meaning of that term. As such,… I would recommend please do not use the term again in any debate you are having with other posters. I don’t feel it is helping anything with your debate and letting people think that the term is ok because a mvp uses it. It would just incite more people to use that term. Almost everyone knows what that term means… (except you perhaps-is that your defense?)
With that said…
I would rather see the removal of the MVP system over the removal of the titanforging system in a heartbeat. No offense.
MVPs claim they do not represent neither the players or blizzard, so what is the point? Why is your opinion valued over others opinion?.. and when can we say that MVPs are using that green text to ultimately get what they want? When MVPs get to use that green text to constantly argue that certain systems in the game are trash (effectively trashtalking the game)or that players are receiving “welfare epics” that they don’t deserve etc… (effectively trash talking players) then there is an issue at hand.
Just my opinion.
P.S. There comes a point where you have to admit that this is a player vs player game. It was originally designed to have pvp aspects involved. Making players do mythic raiding or extra difficult content to have the proper tools or gear to successfully compete in said pvp interactions, is silly. Gating others from gaining proper gear to level the playing field in pvp is self centered. You may think that high level raiding is end game and is all what wow is about. I argue that pvp is end game and the entire premise of the game itself. Just because you enjoy raiding does not mean everyone should now raid. What is the point of getting the best gear in the game? to just be geared enough to go farm more gear? Nonsense. PVP is endgame. World of WARcraft… not World of Gearfarming.
You have admitted you used to sell runs in the past and I believe this is clouding your judgement on what is fair to gamers. People don’t like the thought of having to pay for gear from raiding nor spending months to get the gear. Also imo, soaking the playerbase making them pay for upgrades via carries after they pay for the game and a sub fee really hurts the game. Alternate sources of gearing is preferred by the casual playerbase and it should be available without resistance.
Thank god Blizzard sees this already. Making the game “raid hardcore or die” will just kill the playerbase.
So what someone gets a titanforge or higher il then your raids. You should be happy for them that you now have more power on your faction. Not telling someone “Hey you don’t deserve that gear, see you next tuesday.” How offensive.![:face_with_symbols_over_mouth:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/face_with_symbols_over_mouth.png?v=6" ":face_with_symbols_over_mouth:")
Being able to outgear what they consider to be the ultimate end game content at the entry level difficulty. Assuming 385 gear the only upgrades are for heroic or >+7 M+. So what was once the entry level difficulty which was normal or low keys is now heroic and mid-high keys.
Regardless of when they wanted to enter the raid they’ve invalidated a difficulty because of gear progression. The individual may not want/be able to cope with the additional mechanics and increased punishment from heroic but still wants to be able to progress as normal.
Everyone plays differently and has a different idea of how progression would be best suited to them, you just agreed to that idea but are trying to chew someone out for it again ![:roll_eyes:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/roll_eyes.png?v=6" ":roll_eyes:")
Someone who is actually interested in progressing a raid would have given it a shot long before 6 weeks of warfronts and world questing got them 385 ilvl.
The entire point is that there should be alternate avenues to gearing other than raids or M+. It should be enough for you that it takes 6 times longer to get to 385 if you don’t raid.
Your real problem is not titanforging at all. It is that you don’t think people who don’t raid should be allowed to have gear at all.
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awesome reply~
And I wasn’t even trying to gear this alt of an alt when the raid came out. I only started gearing her seriously last week. About the only thing that I purposefully geared was when the 400 warfront quests came out. Which proves my point that you can get geared quickly and easily past Normal without really touching any difficult content whatsoever. And this isn’t the end of the tier either, it’s barely a month in.
Also, gear still matters if you want to do normal, in fact I’d argue it matters more since most pugs want higher i-levels to do normal than they did day one of the raid.
Ah, here we go. I was wondering if you’d bring this up. I don’t care about other people’s gear, I care about mine. This isn’t some conspiracy to keep the poor casuals down. What I care about is that my alts that have touched not a single difficult piece of content have individual pieces of gear higher than my main who has started pushing mythic. Nothing more, nothing less.
It is telling though how you jumped to “you just don’t want anyone to get gear!” when my point this entire thread was that it’s easy to gear up and completely invalidate an entire raid tier without really touching the raid.
RL sometimes stops people from raiding up to that point. If someone can’t commit to a raid schedule because of a month of finals in school
(arbitrary example) they then have to enter that raid/M+ tier late despite having engaged in other content up to that point. If they don’t want to do that higher difficulty or slowly learn their way up through base difficulty they get no reward from it. This is an internal problem for that particular type of player.
It’s great that you think so, it complements the way you play and it’s great that it works for you. Having said that, there is also more than 1 way of playing and what’s described above is just another scenario. Is that kind of player less valuable than another?
This has nothing to do with it. The only thing here is how the system impacts personal gameplay/progression experience. Nothing more, nothing less.
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I wasn’t replying to you though, not sure why you’re personally offended.