And this is exactly why catch up mechanics and alternative gearing methods exist. So that people who do have to stop playing for whatever reason don’t end up being locked out of content for the remainder of the expansion.
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Oh, I’m sorry, did you think I was offended? I just replied to the statement you made, I assure you, there was no offense taken. I just wanted it to be clear that not everyone who wants a cap put on titanforging wants to take away gear from others.
The guy I was replying to made it pretty clear that he was upset that people could reach that gear level at all, titanforging or not.
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Fair enough. I would also argue that making a tier’s progression essentially pointless after a month because someone wasn’t able to keep up for whatever reason is not good for the game either. And honestly, no one would be locked out of content for the remainder of the expansion. It would be more accurate to say until the next tier when higher level gear comes out. And that’s worst case, many people would just run content for better gear.
There has to be a middle ground that doesn’t swing the pendulum too wildly one way or the other.
Who are you speaking for? Because you’re not speaking for you. Where are these magical people that are actually upset that they now overgear normal because they wanted to progress through it but that didn’t do that? You know, the ones that logged in every day to do invasions and Emissary quests, to do warfronts and weekly quests, for weeks until they overgeared normal instead of just doing it and getting geared even faster.
Everyone plays different and has different ideas of how progression would be best suited to them, even the imaginary people in your head apparently. I’m not chewing anyone out for that idea. No one presented it as, “this is me, I wanted to, now I can’t, I’m so upset about it!” It’s always some nebulous other person that people are speaking for, about how it ruins that person’s experience. We’ve gotten a few, “but hey look at me! I’m overgearing normal now!” And not a single one of them actually had any intent to do normal raiding. And shockingly, they’re all alts of people who do lol.
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This is the middle ground. Want to run the content and gear faster and higher than you would otherwise? Awesome, go do it. Want to progress from solo world content slower but also lower ilvl than you would if you did organized group content? Cool, have at it. Everyone gets something to work towards at their own pace and desired time commitment and we end up with people at graduated levels of ilvls from mythic down to solo world content consumers.
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This issue is pretty simple.
Before TF/WF - If I run MC enough times, I’ll eventually see my Giantstalker drop and be able to collect the complete set.
After - TF and WF create a scenario where it’s virtually impossible to get the best gear.
- Does it drop: X%
- Does it WF: X%
- Does WF = ilevel, or gem slot, or ilevel and gem slot: X% each
- Does it TF: X%
- Does TF - ilevel AND gem slot: X%
It’s stupid, not necessary, and Blizzard knows exactly what they’re doing regarding a players dopamine hits. The bad luck protection they tout is as bad as feeding scratch-n-win players a line about how 1 in 10 wins or something equally ridiculous. IMO.
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Middle ground as in between two extremes. We’ve seen the one extreme (i.e. Vanilla where gearing was tedious), where was the extreme that dropped gear like candy then?
Personally, I’d like to see a cap on titanforging where you can only go up to the “next” level of difficulty. You still get a nice surprise once in a while, but you can’t win the RNG lottery with up to a potential 55+ i-level upgrade that breaks progression.
To your point on another comment, if WF/TF still existed but gear from other content couldn’t forge into the next difficulty I think that would feel better for everyone.
The way forging works now in most cases for me and fellow guildies (in raid specifically since gear from other sources besides M10 is sharded/scrapped 99% of the time anyway) is that if a piece doesn’t forge we’re disappointed and thus the piece has little-no value especially so if we have a WF/TF from an easier difficulty. We’re also disappointed when a piece from mythic (which SHOULD be an upgrade) is not an upgrade due to how high a piece can forge from normal, heroic, or mythic plus.
To make the system feel worse in many cases unlucky people may have worse luck by having a piece they don’t need/want to forge or a forge to proc in non mythic content making the player feel as if they should’ve skipped whatever content they just completed prior to mythic. The same goes for bosses and most of the time not receiving a piece of a piece drops for you from the prior boss.
In short I FIRMLY believe the entire loot/reward system needs to be heavily reevaluated.
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That’s exactly my point. This is the middle ground between those two extremes. We’ve just had one and not had the other. When solo world content consumers can gear up to the level of a mythic raider, that’s the other extreme. This, this is the middle ground where everyone can progress, the more difficult the organized group content you do the farther you progress until the next tier of content comes which then starts the cycle anew.
But I do understand what you were saying. You want a middle ground between what we have now and what we had in the past.
You keep saying this as if it’s factual. It’s not. And we’ve already established that there are a lot of people that see it as a non-issue or don’t buy into the opinion you have that it breaks progression, including myself. Hell, your entire argument about it breaking progression is predicated on a lie. It only breaks progression if you opted out of raiding because you got geared faster from world solo content. You didn’t. You simply didn’t do anything but world content. That’s not breaking content, that is an alternative form of content to raiding. Which is exactly the purpose it’s supposed to serve.
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That’s because some people are incapable of setting reasonable expectations for themselves. That’s not a loot issue, that’s a player issue. The game has evolved. BiS lists still exist today, it’s just different than it was years ago where BiS meant a single item drop from the highest difficulty of raid or if you go back far enough a single rare item from a random rare mob spawn in a dungeon that was better than raid gear (talking spellpower gear from vanilla). It hasn’t been what you’re pretending it is for many years.
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We have never had an extreme of mythic-quality loot dropping from the sky like candy. That is not what we have now. We have quite a bit of baseline loot dropping, sure, but without extreme, outlier-levels of luck, no one is going to be mythic-level geared just from doing world content.
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I don’t even like opening the box in the first place, the anxiety about getting garbage makes it feel bad. Even when I do get a nice mcforge I’m just relieved i didn’t get ripped off, not happy I got the mcforge.
That’s not necessarily the extreme. Personally I think the extreme is when I checked when we were 4ish weeks into the expansion the average ilvl for boss kills at normal/heroic (subtracting the # of parses at higher difficulties at each ilvl to approximate just the heroic/normal ones) is ~382 and ~397 from Warcraft logs IIRC. So the extreme in this scenario is that the availability of loot (I personally think compounded by the TF system), has made the base rewards from normal/heroic relatively negligible at that difficultly.
- As a concept, is that a problem? Not necessarily, that gear probably helped them clear the content faster.
- Does it impact the enjoyment of the reward structure that comes from that content? Based on responses this thread - it definitely does have an impact on enjoyment.
Please don’t talk for anyone other than yourself.
Perfectly stated.
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Yep it does for a statistically insignificant amount of testimonials. The thread is 3221 right now and I’m 1/10th of it. And don’t forget, many of the responses here are how forging positively impacts gameplay. So yes, for an insignificant amount of people it’s negative, for an insignificant amount of players it’s positive, and the vast majority of players haven’t voiced an opinion on the matter.
For a 2,000,000 population size, you need 385 participants for 95% confidence with a 5% margin of error - assuming a random representative sample. Pretty confident that there are 385 unique posters in this thread or at least close to it, all have which have engaged with the game differently and are therefore random. On that basis, this thread is a relatively good sample size and provides statistically significant insight into player opinions.
Whether that information does anything or not or is another question, but since CM’s are asking about individual experiences you’d think it would have some impact.
So you honestly believe that people who are active on the forums represent a accurate sampling by player type of the subscribers of the game? That’s not even accounting for the fact that the people who responded aren’t a random sampling of the population of people active on the forums. It’s a poll of a very narrow subsection of the playerbase of which we don’t even have numbers to show the people actively choosing not to respond. To put it simply, you have no idea what you’re talking about.
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It impacts enjoyment positively since I can do m+ and heroic raids and still have a chance to get an upgrade as opposed to 0. And right now there are just too many barriers to entry for mythic raids with the lockouts and 20 man requirement as well as must be same server.