Titanforging and Warforging make me upset

[Provemewrong-uldum]

They are being over-rewarded.

This does not sound right for a mvp that is supposed to be speaking for the people. Instead it seems you want to punish other players and give them less. Less choices, less loot, less titanforges or higher il gear.

Is the natural gearing curve that irritating to you and you figure that only top notch raiders should get everything?

What about the players that want to work there way up to harder content? How do they gear up? Do they just go buy carries or something?

[Kalressa-wyrmrest-accord (Kalressa)]

This does not sound right for a mvp that is supposed to be speaking for the people.

MVP’s are not our own personal mouthpieces that parrot what we want them to say. They are allowed to have their own opinions and thoughts.

What about the players that want to work there way up to harder content? How do they gear up? Do they just go buy carries or something?

The same way that players have been doing since the game was created. You start with lower tiers and work your way to the higher ones as you get gear upgrades and experience. That’s pretty much how you progress in any kind of content, solo or group.

[Orctang-area-52 (Orctang)]

Note: Sorry to use your players as an example

No offense taken…

Given rewards were appropriate to their skill range, and taking your Heroic raids into account, I’d expect their gear to fall around 397-400 by the end of the tier. However, with all the other sources of big gear upgrades including your Mythic+ carries (figure every other week they get a +8/9/10), I’m pretty sure they’d land around 403 by the end of the tier, and maybe as high as 407 if they get really lucky (like, Warfront and +10 caches rolling big.).

I agree with what you are saying about the item levels of the players by the end of the raid tier. The difference is it doesn’t bother me any and I don’t feel it hurts that game or anyone else.

“Why are Normal-mode skilled players running around so much Heroic loot?” “If they’re running around with 400 ilvl loot mid-tier, they significantly outgear content better suited to their skill level. And how does that impact their choice to do content?” “Do they try to push their keys, or do they wait for their guild to carry them? Or are they just playing and it’s not a true carry – it just happens to be a +10 or whatever?”

Quite honestly it doesn’t matter what people do in the game to get gear (my opinion). In my guild because it is built up as friends first then “skill/ability” some of these players will always be “carries” in our raids and the fact that Blizzard has made it “somewhat” easier to carry them through “Heroic” raids actually makes the whole experience more enjoyable for me.

“Raid or Die” meant that you needed to be in a raiding guild to enjoy most endgame content. I worry it may evolve into “Guild or Die” because their is no endgame progression without guilds.

On one hand you have the people that complain about Blizzard making guilds useless and that destroys community and on the other side you have join the guild or die people. I guess there needs to be some balance?

I’d like to see some sort of endgame progression content for your less-skilled players. I fear they feel like they cannot do anything without you

I would like to see more “solo” content that could be challenging in the game maybe this could support your thoughts here. I also would like to have (I hate to say the word) “Diablo” levers where you can adjust the strength and health of the world mobs and have more rewards for more difficult levels.

As always, just an opinion

I do enjoy talking to you even if we don’t agree or have the same opinions about all things in game.

[Paeldryth-hyjal (Paeldryth)]

There just isn’t a whole lot of incentive to persevere through a more challenging level of content when the easier content can provide roughly equal rewards if done enough times.

The incentive is time.

Will you be able to find people as geared as Mythic raiders? Sure, but only because they are dumping hours upon hours of time into M+.

I’ll stick with my 12 hour progression schedule over grinding M+ for months. That weekly time will also significantly drop once we clear the tier and become a few hours a week.

[Aewendil-caelestrasz (Aewendil)]

One can make arguments about the health of the game and whether systems are too over-rewarding leading to the games own downfall without the explanation being jealousy.

Spite, not jealousy.

The overarching theme is that people who are doing lesser content don’t “deserve” the gear the awesome mythic dudes are getting.

[Aewendil-caelestrasz (Aewendil)]

There is very little that I could even use from Normal difficulty and I’ve only killed one boss in Normal and completed one M+ dungeon. It feels like a wasted night (gearing wise) to help my friends that run Normal difficulty.

This just in:

Normal mode is a joke difficulty that is aimed at the lowest skilled players in the game. It’s not a bug if you don’t feel like doing it. There are 2 whole difficulties of raiding higher than normal mode.

[Synsha-greymane (Synsha)]

Spite, not jealousy.

The overarching theme is that people who are doing lesser content don’t “deserve” the gear the awesome mythic dudes are getting.

One can also make arguments about the health of the game and whether systems are too over-rewarding leading to the games own downfall without the explanation being spite (or insert w/e negatively associated word you want here). Sometimes people actually enjoy discussing systems of progression and what we think would bring the most people in.

Personally, I think the old style of progression provides more lasting enjoyment. Since WoW is a game that is aimed at players to be playing for long stretches of time… I’d think they’d be aiming for lasting enjoyment. Not quick bursts of dopamine.

This just in:

Normal mode is a joke difficulty that is aimed at the lowest skilled players in the game. It’s not a bug if you don’t feel like doing it. There are 2 whole difficulties of raiding higher than normal mode.

There are difficulties lower than normal mode. If normal mode is soooo pointless… then why does it even exist?

[Aewendil-caelestrasz (Aewendil)]

The same way that players have been doing since the game was created. You start with lower tiers and work your way to the higher ones as you get gear upgrades and experience.

The problem is that this never worked. It’s very difficult to “Work your way up” when raiding is the only gear progression path. Because you won’t be invited to the raids that you need to “work your way up” in. This is the entire reason that alternative gearing paths exist in the first place.

Of course many people know this full well, but just preferred it when “casuals” never got to do anything at all.

[Synsha-greymane (Synsha)]

The problem is that this never worked. It’s very difficult to “Work your way up” when raiding is the only gear progression path. Because you won’t be invited to the raids that you need to “work your way up” in. This is the entire reason that alternative gearing paths exist in the first place.

Of course many people know this full well, but just preferred it when “casuals” never got to do anything at all.

Define casuals. Define never got to anything at all. A lot of this thread has been around players that never intended to do anything at all. Is your definition of getting to do anything at all simply getting higher ilvl gear?

I’d say I was the definition of a casual player throughout BC, Wrath, Cata, and MoP. I guess I never realized that I wasn’t getting to do anything at all throughout that time.

[Orctang-area-52 (Orctang)]

Define casuals.

It is not possible. Everyone’s “causal” definition is different and no one agrees on a definition.

[Aewendil-caelestrasz (Aewendil)]

There are difficulties lower than normal mode. If normal mode is soooo pointless… then why does it even exist?

It’s not pointless for people who plan on raiding from the first day of release. Sure it’s pointless if you spend 5 weeks gearing up and then complain “oh no I outgear normal without even raiding!”. Of course you do, that’s the whole point.

[Orctang-area-52 (Orctang)]

I’d personally prefer they not be there as I prefer the BC progression style

I thought the BC attunement progression was terrible this was a huge part of progression.

It was a huge slow down for my guild trying to attune replacement raiders, because we were on a smaller server that didn’t support many raiding guilds.

[Kalressa-wyrmrest-accord (Kalressa)]

This just in:

Normal mode is a joke difficulty that is aimed at the lowest skilled players in the game. It’s not a bug if you don’t feel like doing it. There are 2 whole difficulties of raiding higher than normal mode.

I’m well aware that Heroic and Mythic exist as I participate in both of those difficulties. Not everyone does that, nor does that invalidate the lower tiers. There are a lot of normal raiders out there, my group of friends being one of them.

I wonder what you think of LFR if you think Normal is a joke and aimed at the lowest skilled players. I’m certainly not a fan of it, but I recognize that it’s here to stay and a lot of players get enjoyment from it.

[Aewendil-caelestrasz (Aewendil)]

I wonder what you think of LFR if you think Normal is a joke and aimed at the lowest skilled players. I’m certainly not a fan of it, but I recognize that it’s here to stay and a lot of players get enjoyment from it.

I recognise that too, but complaining that people doing M+ are invalidating normal raiding is just asinine. Those people are not the target of normal raids.

[Nawat-emerald-dream (Nawat)]

But it doesn’t have a significant impact.

The cause of gearing faster is the mythic+ cache loot which is base 410 ilvl. Which can be clearly seen on your own character and that of anyone else. Titanforging is a drop in the ocean compared to that

It’s really not because that’s again all RNG. They both have an effect and it’s additive.

War/Titan forges aren’t fun and most of the reasons stated above explain why. Just because you disagree with those opinions doesn’t make your opinions any more valid.

[Aewendil-caelestrasz (Aewendil)]

It’s really not because that’s again all RNG. They both have an effect and it’s additive.

Getting 410 gear from M+ cache is not RNG. It’s guaranteed.

[Felorean-shadowmoon (Felorean)]

There’s a pretty big difference between not getting the shiny dagger you wanted out of a farm run, and the bull malarkey that is the random forging. You can repeat a dungeon to target farm a piece of gear you want and it’ll always drop as-is when it does. You have virtually zero control over when forging happens and on what gear the game decides it wants to forge for you. Bad secondaries? Too bad it’s 10+ ilvls higher than your other stuff, enjoy not being at your haste breakpoint until you can find a replacement of equal ilvl

[Kalressa-wyrmrest-accord (Kalressa)]

I recognise that too, but complaining that people doing M+ are invalidating normal raiding is just asinine. Those people are not the target of normal raids.

I didn’t. I said that doing easy content such as world quests and warfronts invalidate normal raids, and LFR by default.

[Vaeldaryn-malganis]

Pretty sure being guaranteed a random 410 piece is still random in what random item drops

[Cyouskin-stormreaver (Cyous)]

This does not sound right for a mvp that is supposed to be speaking for the people. Instead it seems you want to punish other players and give them less. Less choices, less loot, less titanforges or higher il gear.

Is the natural gearing curve that irritating to you and you figure that only top notch raiders should get everything?

What about the players that want to work there way up to harder content? How do they gear up? Do they just go buy carries or something?

The only person I speak for is myself. The only time I represent a community of players is when I’m presenting their own opinions directly to Blizzard’s devs – something I’ve done well before I was given an MVP tag.

I feel the game is over-rewarding. I feel the systems are setup in a way that is indicative of “spreadsheet development.” Systems aren’t really designed with a “fun first” mentality, instead they are designed to, as mentioned, look good on quarterly reports.

If players want to work their way up to harder content, they should get better instead of getting gear to carry their lack of skill and awareness. I’ve taught many players how to go from “good” to “great.” “Getting more gear” has never been the answer.