Yeah, out of all of the roguelike games I own, that’s the only one I can think of.
Plus, it was built from the ground up around the timer, not slapped on as a bandaid to keep players from playing the “wrong” way.
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Yea people using it as an example of a timer working are missing all the other factors. The enemies get stronger over time but you have the dynamic of rushing the boss early, farming enemies for gold, and partially or fully clearing an area of chests or going to the next level. Choosing one path over the other each have their risks and the choice often depends on the run. In Torghast the only option with torments is speed through as fast as possible for the optimal run.
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Well it worked, I will not be playing it at all so I can’t play it wrong now. Working as intended Blizzard, Great Job.
That’s all it will become, a speed run to get as far as you can. Just another version of mythic+, the most toxic thing in wow.
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Why not make it so that you can only use your CDs once per floor? Then in a 5 man party, you could discuss who uses which cooldown when and where. Would be much more fun/interesting no?
Bellular had a great idea along these lines, just make the “Exhausted” debuff stay once its applied and only removed at the start of the next floor.
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Because that’s e-sports like rules. What about people who go in solo/duo? You’d destroy and limit the solo gameplay so bad it would be impossible to progress after a certain point.
You’re not prioritizing it over raiding, it’s an exaggeration on a no-timer model that would mean you’d need to be spending more time in Torghast to ensure a clear.
Just like visions, which take entirely too long currently.
Probably someone in the Activision board room disagrees with you.
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Blizzard said they don’t want the torments to rush players so what you are saying they are for is not the case. Before this change you still had the option to rush through as well this doesn’t change anything if that was your intention. For players that do want that pacing though it does change things.
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Please delete the timer feature on all content! I would appreciate that a lot.
So we have to slog through 10+ floors week after week on each character?
Yeah. /sarcasm
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It is basically rehashed island expeditions. Remember the enhanced AI that was hyped for BFA?
You’re misunderstanding what I’m saying, because I said exactly the same thing in response to the people that feel it’s going to be a 5 mask clear with a R10 cloak.
Just adding my comment to support the removal of the timer. Thank you!
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I guess I just don’t understand why people waiting on cooldowns is a problem.
Blizz said that the rewards from Torghast are hard capped. So who cares what people do past that cap? I’d imagine that the system only “incentivizes” you to wait on cooldowns at the higher levels where it’s just for bragging rights and collectibles.
I can’t imagine an incentive large enough that I would want to waste my time waiting on a 10min cooldown.
I’d rather the use of long cooldowns like blood lust being capped per floor and then reset when you go up a floor (like when a M+ dungeon starts). Maybe there could then be a consumable that clears the exhaustion debuff and allows more uses on that floor. It would be an interesting use of phantasma and make for even more meaningful choices. Or better yet, Blizz, design a system that incentivizes the type of play you want to see rather than punishing the kind you don’t want.
I really think that soft timers like this will have unintended consequences. They compound deaths and failures (because of all the extra time you need to get back to where you were) and have always felt terrible. Like when you die in M+ and the graveyard doesn’t move.
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I don’t care for this concept at all…the announcement of Torghast was released with a “play at your own pace” concept, which I really anticipated since I’m more of a casual gamer than I was a few years ago.
I get that they don’t want people sitting around waiting on CDs for every single pull–but honestly, this type of punitive thinking makes me question my pre-order. There has to be a better option than putting a timer (call it a soft enrage all you want, it’s a TIMER) on each floor.
Can’t you just set a limit for major CDs like blood-lust/heroism or higher tier skills like Aspect of the Wild, Celestial Alignment, Arcane Power, etc.) per floor?
Or just make the ‘torment’ be a scaling increase in the downtime of skills? Say per floor, the first time Aspect of the Wild gets used it will proc it’s base 2 minute CD, 2nd time would be a 4 minute CD, 3rd time would be 8 minute CD, so on until the floor is completed?
The end goal here is to discourage those abusing major CDs in order to complete the content–so punish the cooldowns, don’t punish the players taking their time without ‘abusing the system.’
But with this current solution of adding health drains or random kill-squad spawns on the content because of the <1% of players that take advantage of the system, and punishing players like myself that like to take ‘afk breaks’ from the game every so often just seems unfair to my play-style.
Hopefully this changes… I was really looking forward to this new expansion BECAUSE of Torghast when I first heard about it, but if this is how it’s going to end up–I can’t really say I’m looking forward to the expansion at all.
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I dunno if there’s a thread talking about it already, but Bellular made a very good take on the whole Torghast Timer issue.
Timestamp on the best part, angry Bellular is angry : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tf1-Jo_BBX8&feature=youtu.be&t=642
Key outtakes:
Soft enrages are timers
Even if they do not hold back skilled players much during regular play, the mounting stacks and the pressure for efficiency still feel like a time constraint, and a noticeable buzzing fly above one’s head.
Blizzard shouldn’t use punitive design to dictate player pace
As exemples of a better bonus based design, he brings up the Rogue Lite Dead Cells that launched with a type of optional bonus chest that would unlock if reached within a certain time limit to reward speed play, but also boasts Cursed chests to reward methodical play.
Furthermore, the majority of players shouldn’t suffer punitive design for actions only a small fraction might hypothetically undertake. Boredom and available real life time should be incentive enough for the vast majority of sane players to clear at a reasonable, normal pace, in the same way that the vast majority of sane normal players do not do split runs or endless Island grinds or 24 hours long raids.
The CD argument is a false problem that exists far more in the mind of Blizzard designers than within the player base itself. There also exist alternative solutions to the elephant in the room, Bloodlust/Heroism, like making Exhaustion last for the entire floor or until death once used.
Playing hardcore Torghast feeling necessary would be a design failure
If the likes of Method end up doing silly min/maxing in Torghast because pushing high floors feels mandatory to progression and competition, then Blizzard failed to design the reward system for Torghast correctly. The Blizzcon announcements painted doing run-of-the-mill Torghast runs 2-3 times a week as sufficient for progression, and anything beyond that as cosmetics and bragging rights. In other words, maximum benefits for the smallest costs for the majority of players, then diminishing returns if you engage beyond that minimum weekly expectation. If Torghast adheres to that original vision, what does Blizzard gain from controlling 1% super hardcore play at the expense of ordinary players? It feels like using a sledgehammer to do a scalpel’s job. Once again: the simplest approach with the least downsides could boil down to making Exhaustion last for the remainder of the floor.
Pressure through timers represents an accessibility issue
Players who suffer from anxiety or attention or motor handicaps already leveraged that concern as to why they do not participate in M+ or Visions.
Blizzard being most interested in alpha participant feedback
The Blizzard post saying that feedback from players with actual experience in Torghast is the most valuable, rather than discussion on the principle of time-based difficulty, comes off as arrogant. It’s basically saying “if you don’t like this in principle, then we’re not interested in what you’ve got”. To the contrary, many people flat out not liking the principle of a design is absolutely relevant. This relates to Blizzard’s possible lack of emotional intelligence, preferring to design by spreadsheet rather than how things feel to players. Which is a big blind spot when they ever have to consider things like anxiety or social dynamics. How players feel on design decisions based on Blizzard’s own messages and releases is entirely important market feedback, especially if that feedback draws from actual experience with similar designs (M+ and Visions). And even more so if in any case, access to try Torghast for themselves is currently deliberately limited by the selective alpha process.
Blizzard should chill out and have a beer
Really. Torghast is already hard to balance as it is, without time pressure adding more discrepancies to some class benefits and not others over CD worries. Just work against Bloodlust and call it a day. Take the rest of the day off. Lounge in the yard and have a beer.
It took five years to get Titanforging over with, hopefully it doesn’t take that long this time.
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Simple solution: make long cooldowns only tick down in combat.
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I think this video by Preach nailed the issues with this.
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Stop telling me how to play my freaking video game, Blizz.
If someone wants to sit around waiting for bloodlust to reset each pull, and spend their entire day on a single run, LET THEM. Why do we care so much about regulating how people play the freaking content, and putting player behavior into defined boxes?
There are countless content-related items that players would rather Blizz devs focus their time and attention on. This is a problem that Blizz has invented, it does not need to be solved. As Preach, Bell, Asmon have all said (and they have played Torghast), this will be a constant nag in the back of players’ minds and will feel awful, as so many of Blizz’s design choices over recent years have (looking at you, corruption RNG upon RNG upon RNG).
Stop penalizing the entire player base with your heavy-handed solutions. Please ditch the proposed system, and stop wasting your time so you can make the game good again.
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