Assa has been plagued for a long time for being too energy starved, even if you just refresh your dots and don’t spam, you will end up without energy at some point. I remember some long raid fights last exp that I was just keeping Garrote, Rupture and Envenom up between burst windows and energy runs out at some point and have to pool, stopping Multilate and Envenom, dropping dps, because our energy regen talents doesn’t regen fast enough, unless you get super lucky with seal fate procs. When you play other classes and you realize you don’t actually have to manage resourses because they almost never run out, you go back to Rogue and wonder why is it still like this.
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Those who have learned to treat reading like a speed challenge have hurt us all. They read quickly what the want to see and edit out the context. This has lead to half hearted fixes that operate like band aids and never actually work in the long run.
At this point I think they just had AI do a phrase search.
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The Thistle Tea update will cause me to just auto attack on trash. I’ll put up a 5 point Crimson Tempest and spam FoK, that’s about it. Probably just spec out of Caustic Spatter at that point because tbh without WA’s for it, I can’t even see what has my Deathstalker’s mark or Rupture on it in dungeons and I’m not adding anymore Deathstalker weak auras. If I have to have 4+ Weakauras for my Hero tree (not to mention nothing I have tracks Clear the Witnesses) then the tree, game or class needs to be reworked.
This level of laziness on Blizzard’s part is very cringe.
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Might I recommend cleaning up the UI?
Plater can make things quite easy with blacklisting the debuffs that clutter things and are irrelevant to us. For my own purposes I only have to see
Deadly, Garrote, Rupture, Crimson.
There are blinking borders to indicate pandemic durations, and all of the misc effects that add debuffs are hidden. Deathstalkers mark is emphasized with a purple border. CC’s are off to the side. It’s quite easy to track things when properly set up.
As far as weakauras go I havent had to add a single one in TWW. I’ve got them for subterfuge, IC, tea charges, and shiv charges, but nothing else was added that really needs tracking. Even darkest night can just be done via debuffs on nameplates.
What is clogging things up for you?
I would much rather have it remain as it is. Yes, it’s annoying to have to work it into your rotation, but I’d much rather have it under my control rather than “Oh, you spent below 50 energy, burn a charge.”
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It’s nowhere near as bad as Feral’s energy situation.
Sin can still cheese getting your energy back rq by slapping rupture on dying targets.
Feral just runs out, and has to wait 5~10 seconds to play the game again. They’ve ruined the way Feral feels to play entirely.
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i loved legion feral. you pressed buttons. twas great
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I agree. Having multiple talents for more energy or energy regen just implies that the baseline energy/regen is poorly designed. Not sure why Rogue has a slow resource regen plus a combo point system. Why not be a more simple builder-spender?
We do because that’s our thing.
Back in classic a backstab could do 1/3 of a mage’s HP bar. We could do Ambush and a backstab back to back, sometimes outright killing a mage if both crit.
We were designed from the get go to be powerful. Big powerful hits from moves like backstab, mutilate, and even bigger finishers. To balance this, we were given energy which was slow to recover, but allowed pooling so we could dispense our burst when we saw the good opening. This also allowed for skilled play in PvE because we didn’t just spam the moment we could for optimum performance.
Fast forward 2 decades and everything moved on from that older design philosophy. Dungeons are all gogogo. Most classes have nearly infinite resources to sustain 5+ minute raid fights without pausing.
But you gotta consider what would occur if they did change it. If we got better energy, builders are getting a damage nerf. APM is going up. Gameplay feels more frantic all the time, lag is more disruptive. We cannot pool anymore, removing a part of the feel and identity of the class.
Plus its not like “rogue” is a single thing anymore. We all have slightly different problems when it comes to energy issues. Sin swims in energy with rupture deaths, but sucks until stuff starts dying. I don’t know much about subs or outlaws ins and outs, but I strongly doubt one change is going to serve all the specs equally well.
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In TBCC, ret paladin was about watching your swing timer intently and twisting Seal of Blood. In WotLKC, it was about pressinig all your buttons all the time.
Now, it’s about building your holy power and spending it.
Things change and rogues are several years behind now.
You no longer “2shot mages” with your generators. You’re lucky to 2shot a minion trash mob like that.
You are the only class that has to STOP to perform their optimal rotation and the only class that can in fact get resource starved in longer fights.
This is outdated and annoying at this point, the game’s pace changed since whatever ancient times you mean and most classes followed.
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Agree to disagree.
You say we are several years behind, but sin got a rework in DF that I think brought them up to the best spot they have been before.
Besides energy issues, most rogues “issues” are highly subjective.
Most Rogue issues are not subjective though.
Rogues are going backwards in terms of design.
The only thing stopping the backward march was the un pruning of abilities. Without that un pruning it would be way worse for Rogues.
The key to fixing Rogues is to return the diamonds aka energy for Rogues to how it was pre Legion.
Once that is done then Rogue damage can once again move away from auto attacks and white damage.
Those are the two things that Aldriana fought hard for:
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“Backwards” is subjective. I personally liked the DF sin rework. Which of us is correct? Neither, because it’s not a matter of objectivity. It’s a matter of taste and interpretation.
To really discuss objectivity, people have to be far more specific than they seem to be willing to on the forums. Right now besides what I’m not even sure is a bug or not (Deathmark not reapplying sometimes) and poor energy recovery (even with talents), what would you describe is an objective problem with assassination right now?
Don’t get me wrong, I agree with a ton of your takes and opinions. Especially differing to your knowledge of specs I don’t play. But I do think they are opinions. Opinions I share, but opinions none the less.
I didn’t even discuss the feel of the specs which is my opinion and can be subjective.
Objectively the energy for all three specs is busted because they chose to make Relentless Strikes a talent again when it was baseline for all three specs. That is #1 that Aldriana fought hard for.
#2 was moving away form white/auto damage because it reached absurd levels in early Cata. That is why by the end of Cata/MoP/WoD that was peak Rogue design.
They promised to move Rogues damage away from auto/white damage in Legion but since then it has slid back to BC/WotLK/early Cata levels.
Like I said fix those two main issues and the rest takes care of itself.
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I can see the argument, but im not sure i agree its the solution as most of the energy issues come after youve spent your builder 3 times, even on Sub which does have relentless strikes. The reason Sub truly benefits from it is because its able to generate 7 CP in one gcd (or none) during SD. If you press backstab 2 or 3 times though youre still gonna be sitting there crying like the other 2 specs (however it makes the burst windows feel better overall)
Relentless alone would never make Sin feel good cause of mutilate CP rng having us press the button at least twice. Outlaw may benefit, but once again once you have no FtH stacks youre back to spamming SS.
This I whole heartedly agree with. Hunt Them Down is probably the most egregious talent implemented since Legion between the DM interaction and the fact that its straight up white damage buff under a different color.
I need to look at my dmg meter but I think I see “Hunt them Down” pretty high in my sources usually. Which if I am recalling correctly is absolutely a regression for Rogues. It is just a auto-attack buff and we do not want or need that as it inevitably hurts us.
You can’t make our builders or spenders strong if our auto-attacks start doing too much because if we begin to outstrip other dps too much they have to balance that out.
Damage is budgeted and if I had to choose where to allocate it, it would not be on auto-attacks. And Assassination is particularly harmed by this since poisons are basically just auto-attacks. So we already have multiple auto-attack buffs in the form of SnD, and poisons yet we get another plopped on us as Hero Talent?
Which might not be so bad if we were otherwise generally satisfied with our Hero Talent as a whole but last I checked most of us thought they were okay-ish to bad.
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If youre sticking to the target it does nearly twice as much damage as your regular auto attacks bringing your auto attack damage in single target to well over 10%.
So I did a 5 min test on a dummy and “Hunt them Down” actually did more damage then my melee attacks. The two combined accounted for about 12% of my damage. Factoring in all other passive buffs to auto-attacks, such as Deadly poison, Flensing Knives, Amp poison etc these sources were about 23.8% of my damage. If you factor in all passive sources (damage not directly obtained from builders or spenders themselves) about 27.1% of my damage came from these places.
I did a comparison with my Monk and using the same criteria I got 22.1% of damage from these sources. Flurry Strikes was the lion’s share by far coming at 11.7% with actual Melee damage being 2.6%. Compare this to my Rogue’s melee which was 5.6%.
I will try Fury next to see what they look like.
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My Fury War had 5.9% of the damage come from Melee, 10.3% from Lightning Strike and 3.9% from Gushing Wound for 20.1%.
Also as my Fury War, I had so many procs that I was physically unable to use them all before they ran out due to GCDs not being fast enough. I never stopped using attacks and had 95% uptime on Enrage. And Fury is not a spec I play on my War. I’m shocked by how easy it was to get the rotation down. And the damage I did even as poorly geared as I am
As to the point I think we’re trying to make in this thread - from this cursory little experiment I did a lot of a Rogue’s damage comes from Passive sources that require you to sit on target for a long time. At least for Assassination.
The argument that energy botte necks us in ways other classes resources aren’t by their resources might explain this. It could also be the case that too much of our damage is tied to passive sources.
It occurs to me that this could be a chicken and egg issue. Is our energy budget tight because we have so many sources of passive damage that if we could spend more freely our damage would be too high? Or is our passive damage so high because we have been given a tight energy budget and so to keep our damage in line we have these passive sources.
So I did more testing with Thistle Tea and really for PVE you are using it more so for mastery and to an extent in PVP. but in PVP you are just using it as another reserve for energy. But PVP talents like Control is King exists which kind of invalidates the entire of point of picking up Thistle Tea for the energy in PVP.