There is literally nothing wrong with redeeming Sylvanas

I think that is precisely a reason to be even angrier right now. Because Tauren also helped to fight against the night elves and invaded their lands. It hurts much more when a supposed friend did something to you, as your sworn enemy.

So Tauren and Druid-Combination (Learned from the Night Elves) is probably even a bigger red flag than, say, an Orc. Because the Tauren in a vengeful mind (As Tyrande is right now) betrayed her people.

This is the biggest damage of BFA on hordeside, it destroyed the Hero Fantasy of the Horde

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There is something wrong when your only two story beats are either redemption or corruption though.

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Her chance for redemption was after Wrath. The target of her and her peoples’ vengeance had been defeated. The means had achieved the end.

Instead she just got worse and worse, and then sided with an entity that wants to destroy the universe.

I don’t see what there is to save at this point.

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So spikey, so BDSM, wow

<3 <3 <3 <3

Free me Sylvanas uWu

Spikey waifu Sylvie can free me anytime :gift_heart: :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

She’s wearing the very armor of the place she deemed “a monument of our suffering;” and serving the guy that just made a blademourne* and is responsible for the LK. She remembers a fool when she thinks of the Ranger General, which is the part that she is seemingly trying to eclipse, according to her Anduin confrontation.

Edit: I keep going back to "is she really upset at her past circumstances"(ie Arthas, the Sunwell etc etc) especially when she’s serving the guy that made it all possible.

I think she’s conflicted about never being fully in control as the Banshee Queen. There was always some outside influence pushing her to do certain things.

If that makes any sense.

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Don’t get me started lol.

I’ve never been part of the “all undead(freed) are held to one standard despite the Curse of Undeath affecting the undead in different ways” crowd. It sounds silly and down right disingenuous to me.

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So I just played through Life is Strange, not sure if you have, but she reminds me of Nathan. Completely unstable and lashes out because he hates being controlled. Sounds a lot like Sylvanas to me post-becoming the Banshee Queen.

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That’s the impression I got too. Since her turn as the banshee queen, there’s always been someone or something else telling her what to do.

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Regardless, your love for Sylvie is nice to see and unlike some, I can tell you actually mean what you type/say about her :gift_heart:

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I’m kind of reminded, thinking about this problem, of Star Trek. I thought those stories were fun because they worked off of putting the characters in a tight spot, and then working out how they get out of it - usually finding some crazy idea that threads the needle between a host of either bad outcomes, or solutions that won’t work.

Watching Blizzard’s writing team is kind of like that, only they fail with the regularity of a sloppy drunk trying to play Operation. One has to wonder why they insist on getting themselves into these messes with their track record, but, either way, we’re here - and Sylvanas shows up as a self-contained minefield.

Let’s address the most impacted party first - the Forsaken. Their entire identity grew up around this character, and her removal left a crater where that identity used to be. I haven’t talked to a lot of forsaken players who are that happy with Calia, Voss seems to be “meh”, but at the same time, the current Sylvanas is just a smidge too dark and more importantly - out of the faction. Blizzard didn’t seem to have a plan for replacing Sylvanas, which leaves as a solution - redeeming or preserving her in some fashion so that she can continue to fill that hole.

But, that also gets our ship of lore dangerously close to the rocks of “justifying genocide and alienating huge swaths of the playerbase” - and I know I’ll catch flak for the use of that word, but, I’m sorry - that’s how Blizzard framed it. That’s how they presented it. That’s what general audiences see. You can wordsmith it all day, but you’re only really convincing yourself. For everyone else, the problem is still very much here.

There’s one major property that came to mind that approached this sort of question semi-successfully - that would be Watchmen. There are some elements that I think are different in characterization that make this comparison a little less than seamless, but the element that I would put my finger on is: “it’s necessary that you accept this, even if you hate it, because if you don’t, something really terrible will happen”, and it’s notable that Ozymandas is not redeemed. Most of the cast condemns him for it, and the one that accepts it “without condemning, or condoning” says so in an emotionally reserved way. This offers us a glimpse at a path for Sylvanas, something that would allow her to continue to serve that role as a pillar of Forsaken identity (although probably not directly - probably not as their racial leader, and probably not in a capacity that involves her returning to Azeroth) - without justifying what she did.

That just leaves our Rorschach - Tyrande.

I have to say that like many other Night Elf fans, I find myself concerned. The Night Warrior transformation, as pointless as it was, is an interesting piece of framing. Tyrande is presented more than ever as a dark, unstable presence that’s “consumed by vengeance”. If Uther’s Afterlives short is any indication, the question of what is justice and what is vengeance is a major theme of Shadowlands - which, if history is any guide is going to be an opportunity for Blizzard to “answer” that question with their usual flair of twisted, nonsensical morality that we all have to accept. In that regard, Tyrande is flying more red flags than a May Day parade - and there’s no believable way to expect her to forgive Sylvanas for any reason, she hasn’t been written to forgive or forget.

For the Horde fans that might be reading this - remember that moment in BFA where a Purge survivor confronts writer-appointed-moral-authority figure Jaina during her writer-determined-righteous crusade to rescue Baine? Where they rather disgustingly painted this guy with real and legitimate grievances as evil and Jaina as right? This is that on a grand scale - and for us it comes off of the heels of a decade of humiliation that was recently crescendoed by the most in-your-face faction-fueled curbstomp that Blizzard ever put onscreen.

This is the part that I don’t know how to get past. It would be one thing if Tyrande was directing her ire at the Horde - as I feel she should be - but they have established her turning an almost single-minded focus to going after Sylvanas. Assuming you go with an Ozymandas plan - how do you convince Tyrande that she needs to preserve Sylvanas to prevent some horrible outcome? How do you do that and get the audience to believe it? To be satisfied with it? I really don’t know.

Guess I’ll have to wait to see how they get out of this one.

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I’m okay with redeeming Sylvanas if it means redeeming Arthas.

If we’re not going to take the writing seriously and go in a fan fiction direction you might as well go full wish fulfillment.

It’s too much of a twist in the figurative narrative pretzel for Sylvanas to walk away from her actions in BFA (and before) unscathed and “redeemed.” Can anyone name any other major character (villain, let’s be honest here) who has a worse track record than her and STILL manages to evade repercussions? The Lich King, Deathwing, Garrosh, etc all did the same style of horrible actions to the world and the factions and did not escape the player’s justice.

There simply is no latitude for redemption, as I see it. She has tortured innocents. Experimented on prisoners. Ordered the annihilation of entire populations. Does that sound “redeemable” to people in a vacuum, divorced of the vitriol surrounding Warcraft’s storytelling? Certainly CDev must be aware of this on some level, let’s not devolve into absolute cynicism and give them some benefit of the doubt.

And as the above poster has indicated, there are too many spinning plates set in motion by Sylvanas’s crimes to be disregarded at the 11th hour and walked back now. More than WoT, she is responsible for damning the souls of everyone slain in the 4th war. Again, try to remove yourselves from the vitriol and cynicism and recognize just how horrible of a crime that is. To have that go unpunished or somehow rewarded would be absolute madness on CDev’s part. Far worse than the “Draenor is Free” nonsense that was rushed forward to end a failing expansion.

I may have to swear on eating my hat if proven otherwise, but the rational part of my brain still holds on to the idea that people are blowing this latest cinematic way out of proportion. Holding on to irrational outcomes because cynicism has blinded them. She’s going to do something bad to Anduin, the raid content demands it. Tyrande is going to involved in the finale in some major fashion, as she was a notable plot piece of the introduction to SL.

Blizzard are not that subtle nor that foolish. Call me a fool, but I just don’t see them perusing redemption on a character who committed multiple counts of mass murder and Super Hell damnation upon innocents. A multi-million dollar gaming company would be foolish to even tempt to go that direction. Think of the site headlines.

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Maybe its as intended. Often times we’ve seen this scenario; its not new.

A lot here agree that Arthas nor Sylvanas deserved the Maw(tortured for an eternity.) Its probably the closes we will get to redemption. Even though Ranger General Sylvanas doesn’t need redemption; unlike Arthas who is canonically evil before he freely chose to wield Frostmorne.

Maybe its as intended

Yeah, I hope not. I’ve joked that removing Sylvanas from the Forsaken was kind of like that scene from Ironman where the villain takes Tony Stark’s heart and leaves him to die - but I would hope that Blizzard would know better than to treat a playable race that way.

… Not going to spiral into cynicism. I’m not. They shouldn’t do that, and if they do then they deserve the player departures that cementing that action will cause, in addition to the ones that it already has caused.

Like Dave said a while back “WoW is a dark place.”

Just look at WoW’s various storylines to see evidence. With that in mind, do we really expect cdev to take a character who has had her soul involuntarily and forever screwed by the Lich King to have a happy ending; despite all the evil things she has done since being Cursed with Undeath?

I can’t tell if this is bait or not, really. I’m not sure I’m willing to engage with it either way considering who you are.

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Oh no my friend I don’t bait. An in-game character even inferred the difference not even a week ago. I’ve believed it over a decade. I don’t believe that Ranger General Sylvanas who saved women and babies would make the same decisions that the twisted and corrupted soul that we see today would make. Imagine going from saving innocent women and babies to immediately melting the innocent for blight testing.

Sorry not sorry : )

Yes, and I think Dave’s entire approach is wrongheaded. As noted: Revisiting Fargo and Faction Favoritism