Revisiting Fargo and Faction Favoritism

Just passing this along from Kyalin.

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**** the Alliance! ****ing die you ****ing emo ****. […]

I am pathetic. When it comes to World of Warcraft, I am a pathetic nerd. But I’m not Alliance! I can tell you that much!

  • George (Corpsegrinder) Fisher. October 24, 2011

The Faction Rivalry

(https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/3992143/dev-watercooler-faction-favoritism)

On November 25, 2011, Dave “Fargo” Kosak posted an article to the Dev Watercooler. It was called “Faction Favoritism” - and it was intended to respond to accusations of Horde bias. Cataclysm had released one year prior, of course, and the faction war featured heavily in zone revamps that didn’t just give the Horde much-needed questing and zone content, but also gave the appearance of a dominant Horde and an Alliance that was losing ground.

That’s a problem in a competitive multiplayer environment, which in this case is expressed around the faction rivalry, which itself is heavily tied into the playable races. These are the strongest identifying point of our characters, in a game format that fundamentally is about selecting an identity that you like, and using your skills and your own decision making to explore and influence a broad expansive world. An MMO is all about player identity, and the Alliance was being typecast as incapable. That kills motivation, and that’s why at the time, Alliance players were up in arms, particularly after Blizzcon 2011.

Fargo and developers since him have given lip service to this concept. “We want players to be proud of their faction, even at the expense of personal dignity.” Fargo stated. I remember hoping to expect after Fargo said that, that he would acknowledge the problem and announce content that would balance things out.

He didn’t.

"I’m sure glad we didn’t have orc forums back then!"

When WoW first released, it didn’t have much of a story. There were threats, sure, and there were some questlines that took you into the depths of the raids, but for the most part, you were left to explore the world around you and uncover its secrets. This is how I would argue an MMO should be written - instead of writing a narrative for you or making you follow a narrative, it establishes the world as a setting for you to craft your own. This doesn’t require elaborate choice systems or branching storylines, because it relies on emergent gameplay, and experiences that you derive in playing from other people.

That’s a stark departure though from Warcraft’s “roots”, which were based in an RTS. In an RTS, you can and should allow the player to make massive changes to the world. You can trash entire nations in an RTS, especially when the player is doing the trashing. But this doesn’t work in an MMO where playable races are involved. Again, the medium itself encourages and receives far too much investment in those races. A nation’s demolition isn’t happening to characters on the screen, it’s happening to the player , and it ties into their conception of their protagonist’s identity and ability. This is why I don’t find Fargo’s comparison to events that took place in the RTS games or in books to be make sense. In none of the events he mentioned did Blizzard explicitly put the player through those events. Often times they served as prologue, and the player experience begins afterward becoming one of growth. If you tried to pull any of those events in an MMO - I’m confident in saying that yes, you would have an issue in the “orc forums” - that reflects the problem with having these events happen to an established playable race in an MMO, and it gets orders of magnitude worse when faction rivalries with real, live, trashtalking people get involved.

"Suffering is the gasoline that drives our story engine."

Kosak goes on to explain the idea of the “Hero Factory”, elaborating that an unjust and unfair world is one that cries out for heroes.

Now stop - do you realize what he just said?

We were talking about an accusation of faction favoritism, and the piece pivots into how suffering drives their story and creates an unjust world that heroes must rise to mend. So certainly yes, there is favoritism, but it’s favoritism of a different kind.

Let me back up - Warcraft 3 largely established the setting in which World of Warcraft was being built, and the writing team wisely and boldly decided to redefine the Horde. Before this, they were largely stereotypical fantasy bad guys, but Warcraft 3 challenged that narrative and formed the identity of the Horde that attracted many if not most of its players. You could be an Orc and still be heroic - and the sins of the past were blamed on demon blood. But Kosak and his contemporaries undid Warcraft 3’s progress. An uncorrupted Mag’har Orc became a fascist dictator, and then we got introduced to an entire world of uncorrupted Mag’har Orcs who acted just like Warcraft 2 Orcs. Why? Well, it was to create the unjust world that heroes must rise up to confront. The Horde being a villain wasn’t an accident. It was the point.

Nevermind that this was explicitly not what Horde players signed up for. Nevermind that this erased all of the progress that Orcs had made, and subsequently soured a lot of players’ impressions about their own characters. Little of that would matter in an RTS - but again, it DOES matter in an MMO. Coming in from on high and saying “Horde bad”, “Alliance good” is lying to the playerbase, invalidating the choices they made, and bracketing the choices they now can make about their character.

The “Faction Pride” expansion

We know how Kosak’s vision worked out in the arc he was commenting on. Few people were satisfied with the Siege of Orgrimmar. It humiliated and shamed the Horde while cementing the idea that the Alliance was still not competent as a faction rival. It was all they could do when the attempt at shoving an RTS story into an MMO ran up against the limitations of an MMO. The Garrosh bait-and-switch didn’t work either. It failed to resolve concerns that the Horde was being written as evil, and for the Alliance it denied the sense of catharsis that stories following the “Heroes’ Journey” should deliver at this point. The whole concept therefore falls apart.

This isn’t to say that faction war stories are just impossible, but it does highlight the problem with trying to execute one under and RTS philosophy within an MMO. In an MMO, a faction war should live in the setting. That lets a healthy back and forth feed the rivalry, one in which people are motivated and proud to identify how they identified.

As for BFA? It was grown in a lab to make everyone feel awful, and it is a swan song to Kosak’s development philosophy. So has that worked? Well, the rivalry is as toxic and nasty as it’s ever been. Both sides largely agree that the experience was awful. I’ve heard from Horde players that their faction is irredeemable, the Forsaken had a hole blown in their whole identity, and of course Night Elf fans like myself really have no reason to play the game anymore (even if we still care, and would come back if our concerns were addressed). The victories for the rest of the Alliance meanwhile were limited, offscreen, asterisked, and/or unsatisfying - and no, mitigation that lives deep in the text but doesn’t end up onscreen doesn’t count.

“Yes, we know, the faction war failed”. There’s pages of commentary to that point - but the point of this post is to draw a line under the philosophy that stood behind it. I think it’s high time to acknowledge that Kosak was wrong, spectacularly wrong, about how to write the faction rivalry in an MMO - especially as we consider how to emerge from the decade-long train wreck that this very bad idea has left us in.

What now?

Now that we know that Kosak’s philosophy has failed - I’ll add a brief note on where I think we should go. The factions need rebalancing. The Horde needs to rebuild its identity, its roster of characters, and it cannot whipsaw back into villainy. What’s done is done of course, meaning that is going to have to grapple with an Alliance that isn’t going to forget past actions.

As for that Alliance - it needs a bombastic onscreen win (I of course would say in Ashenvale). Period. This doesn’t need to “punish” the Horde, and a good execution of this would seek to build the Horde in terms of characters and moral standing, but given that the “Hero Factory” failed, the Alliance comes out looking wimpy - and that’s death for a good rivalry. As for the “Hero Factory”, the Alliance shouldn’t be the designated series’ heroes. It’s not satisfying and it’s, well, biased.

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I broadly agree with the overall messaging, though -

I’d be interested in an example of a “Bombastic onscreen win” for the Alliance that doesn’t “punish the Horde.”

What’s the exact number of Horde who need to be killed by Tyrande for Night Elf players to be happy, but for Horde players to not feel like they’re being punished for BfA’s terrible construction?

I’m guessing it’s a number that can only be reached by dividing by zero.

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to quote kyalin “i have given up on blizzard night elves and the story its too depressing”.

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That’s really a tough call, actually. I don’t think it’s a matter of numbers, but actual perception that matters. For example, if the Nelves forced the Horde out of Ashenvale and that was it, that’s a “bombastic onscreen win” for the Alliance, but the Horde feels punished. If the Forsaken were to force the Alliance out of the Western Plaguelands (Since Lordaeron is just uninhabitable for anyone at this point.) the same would be true, but the Alliance would be punished.

At this point, I think it’s better for the Alliance to get their big win to better balance the opening of BfA (Where the Horde technically had two wins), to try to better balance the scales, but do it in the way that limits the Horde’s feeling of being punished, and have a return to the Pre-BfA status quo done behind the scenes.

Maybe while we’re in the afterlife hunting down Sylvanas, the Nelves and Forsaken establish new capitals, and reestablish their territory, and in the next expansion, this can be seen, with the retaking of Ashenvale shown in the Night Elf Heritage questline.

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If this is your starting point, I don’t think we’re ever going to arrive at a satisfactory conclusion.

The Forsaken losing their homeland is not a victory, no matter how much Sylvanas smirked while it happened.

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Was pretty much what Zul’dazar was. Got to sack a city, wipe out a fleet…

Alliance players didn’t give a ****, just kept right on whining.

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Yeah, but it “punished” the Horde, too.

Passing on a reply from Kyalin:

I guess to respond to Gavik’s question in that thread. a) The precise mechanics are the subject of a future thread. Stay tuned. But b) I would argue that you balance it first by correcting the Forsaken in the same stroke - a question that I once again leave up to Forsaken players (not my area of expertise, and they’re going to know better than I will what will satisfy them), and as well by presenting the Horde’s defense as heroic. I think this can be accomplished by having the Horde player wage delaying actions where they successfully rescue civilian settlers that the Kaldorei have no compunction against slaying - and then ending the experience with a successful stand on the Southfury river. The Alliance experience would probably end before this, but the Horde experience there should end in something that resembles a win.

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Do they, tho? I personally feel 0 emotional connetion to that zone for my Horde characters. Maybe it’s just me.

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(Commentary): Unit Exacitor’s personal opinion is that there is no bombastic win, particularly against the Horde, that will set anything to right. Rather than trying to achieve some equilibrium in which the Alliance is made to look competent and the Horde heroic, time and resources would be better spent rebuilding the factions in both the metaphorical and literal sense. In another thread I suggest the idea of a number of scattered Night Elf communities in hidden parts of the world that are themselves microcosms of Night Elf culture and society, being united by Tyrande. This builds up the Night Elves’ population as well as culture, and also their cast of characters. That’s something I’d like to see.

(Commentary): To put it simply, smashing the Horde out of Ashenvale (when we don’t even know if they’re still there), isn’t going to address the position the Night Elves are in.

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Might be just you. I remember comments on the forums that roughly equated to “Ashenvale rightly belongs to the Horde” going all the way back to the end of MoP.

Another reply from Kyalin:

That’s about what I expected from him. To that I guess there are two points.

a. He’s wrong. Being martially competent is a substantial part of the Night Elf fantasy that most fans latched onto when they saw them coming out of Warcraft 3. This reestablishes that.

b. If he’s establishing as the standard: one move that’s going to instantaneously fix the problem - he’s not going to find it. This problem, on both sides, was built up over years and it will take years to fix. Ashenvale is the first step to fixing the problem, but it is not the end. The end is a situation where both sides feel strong, and both sides feel motivated about playing what they want to play. It’s a stalemate, and it’s based in restoring martial pride and moral pride.

c. Night Elf fans in general have, ever since “Red Kalimdor” was proposed - railed against the idea of leaving their traditional homeland, effectively running from the enemy with their tail behind their legs rather than responding to the challenge that the faction rival presents, and I would suggest for this poster to account for what fans of what he’s proposing content for broadly are saying before he contributes in this manner. I don’t, for example, try to talk down to Forsaken players as to what they want from the story because I am not them. I don’t share their experiences and what they want to play doesn’t appeal to me as much as it does to them. I am not going to argue that I know better than they do about what will and won’t satisfy them. They are the experts on that.

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(Commentary): While I don’t disagree, this falls into a paradox. Firstly, let’s assume the Night Elves reclaim Ashenvale alone, re-establishing their military competence, or at least taking one step towards that. We run into the issue that the rest of the Alliance did nothing to help, which further drives a wedge into their identity within the Alliance. Now, let’s assume the Night Elves reclaim Ashenvale with the Alliance’s help. There is no military competence to be regained, as it comes off as them being entirely reliant on the Alliance.

(Conclusion): There is no win there, particularly as Night Elves never should’ve lost Ashenvale to begin with. They’ve now been beaten in Ashenvale twice by the Horde. The first time they needed to be rescued by the Alliance. Do we want a repeat of them being damsels in distress? Or more fuel for the, ‘Why are they even Alliance,’ fire?

(Observation): This labors under the presumption that I suggested the Night Elves leave Kalimdor at all. Unit Exacitor would like to see evidence of such a suggestion from himself.

(Commentary): I will apologize for not making it clearer, but by, ‘uniting night elves around the world,’ my intent was not that Tyrande and the rest of the Night Elves abandon Kalimdor. Much the opposite. This is about rebuilding their society and race. Kalimdor is, indeed, a major part of Kaldorei culture and identity. Should Night Elves from around the world be united, it should be in Kalimdor primarily. That is where their capital should be, and remain in perpetuity.

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why does this Kyalin need an inbetween.

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Because they don’t have a sub or were banned, I can’t remember which at this point.

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Probably one or two actual Horde NPCs? that’s usually the way to show that a character isn’t a Worf anymore. It can also be a way to show that this character is “serious” now. But its really easy for bad writers to write said characters like author inserts.

Sadly there aren’t much big name Horde NPC’s anymore.

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Accurate.

:pancakes:

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Ok i am just gonna say this having someone “posting on your behalf” (yes i know this is for circumventing banns, but should generally apply to most things, Finninbas account isnt active but i the person behind him is paying a sub on EU (because EU is where i game at, and unfortunately blizzard is too lazy/pathetic or whatever word you can imagine IDK) and can post (and i believe there are others who CAN post that are here without one. As in there exists people that dont pay the monthly sub to our corporate overlords that can post on the forums.

The issue here is that in order to be martially competent, it seems as though night elves themselves have to be able to hold onto and effectively control ashenvale, darkshore, and teldrassil among others. That in my opinion isn’t martial competence. That is martial superiority. Anything else and there is the perception of being “weak”.

Unfortunately the Hordes major power hub is literally right next to one of the zones in question. In order for night elven martial competence to come to fruition, it requires One of three things. 1) Entire horde on paper to be worse than a single member of the alliance. 2) The main power hub of the Horde be relocated, meaning no more Orgrimmar at its current location. 3) night elves politics get a certain level of divestment from alliance as a whole. Allowing the horde to never perceive the night elves as a non negotiable.

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(Satire): Well you know what they say: you can’t spell Nathanos without Thanos.

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Considering how badly both sides got it in BfA, I think it’s a little unfair for the NE’s to take Ashenvale back without the other side getting a moment of their own. Maybe have Danath push his luck and invade further in towards Lordaeron only for the Horde to send in reinforcements and help them push the Alliance back to Thoradin’s Wall and have that be the border between the two sides.

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Thats one of the major problems with this situation isn’t it. The most reasonable method to get that nice juicy win for the Alliance, especially the NEs, is for there to be a meaningful loss on the Horde side. With the default “meaningful” loss being characters. The issue is, after a: Villain Bat Expansion; a Running Away from Consequences Expansion; a Total Irrelevance Expansion; another Villain Bat Expansion; and now … another Running Away from Consequences Expansion … the Horde’s got no one left. And with how truly Hero centric this game is written, that’s a pretty big thing.

Its this issue that ultimately is the reason I have come to truly dislike working under or with Alliance/Alliance-Neutral heavy lore characters; because doing so has sadly become a symbol of the massive neglect Blizz has shown the Horde on the character development side of things for a decade. It also frustrates the hopes for NE and Alliance players to get their meaningful jabs, because are they really gonna be happy with a random number of faceless, namless NPCs? In a game where population numbers have never really mattered?

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