How long has Dave been gone? Have we seen anything that suggest otherwise, since then?
He may be gone, but the âHero Factoryâ as a story concept is still very much with us - and we saw its raw destructive potential in BfA. Both sides got the short end of the stick because of it, and now weâre having to deal with the damage it caused.
WoW isnât really a (grim)dark place. Way more 4 color (read: comic book like).
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Except itâs not a twisted world view from what weâve been told by the lore.
The Valâkyr let her go to the Maw. Whether judged by the Arbiter (unlikely) or under orders from the Jailer, she ended up in the Maw, with a figurative gun to her head to make a pact with them or spend eternity in endless torment. Couple that with being, literally, controlled by the Lich King and it makes sense to be pretty upset with the system. She canât even escape control by dying - the Jailer is able to stop her from getting judgment and going straight into the Maw.
Her options have been an eternity of torment or work with the Jailer. For her, any change in the status quo is better. If she sees an opportunity to kill the Jailer, I suspect sheâll take it, finally taking vengeance against the actor behind her curse of undeath. If she doesnât - then she carries on with his plans. If the Jailer wins, maybe the system changes for the better (unlikely) or maybe sheâs completely destroyed, but at worst sheâs back to an eternity of torment. If the Jailer loses, he canât control her anymore. Maybe she gets a chance to go to Revendreth (the Arbiter sent very few souls directly to the Maw), maybe sheâs destroyed entirely, or at worst, sheâs back to an eternity of torment.
From a purely detached utilitarian standpoint her actions are rational, both for her and potentially for the universe. If Team Jailer is responsible for the Burning Legion (through the Nathrezim) and the Lich King then the Jailer has overseen countless worlds scoured of every life form. In terms of death counts, burning a hundred Teldrassilâs would not even begin to match him. The benefits and lives saved outweigh the cost in a purely economic sense. If you could prevent disease/hunger/war/everything bad and all it cost was a single innocent life, it is rational to take that innocent life.
But societies (and people) generally donât function in a purely utilitarian manner, and taking an innocent life is generally frowned upon. So I donât expect âforgivenessâ for her, but, as with Illidan, I think there will be more understanding given to her mindset and probably some exploration of the situation from her viewpoint to explain her actions. With Illidan, yes he took the lives of his soldiers, and he did other terrible things, but he single-mindedly devoted himself to protecting Azeroth. Is that redemption? No, and I donât think itâs âYou were right all along!â but it does provide an insight into the mindset of the character and it helps offer a justification for why they would take such a path that most would deem âwrong.â
Youâre new to the Story Forums?
I would not describe the Story Forums as grimdark insofar as I would describe them as Lovecraftian and mind-obliterating.
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Hardly, just opinionated. 
And spreading that pancake goodness around naturally 
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It was rhetorical; I should have stated : )
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The Culling of Stratholme was a choice that has been argued about and I donât think thereâs really a consensus on whether it was a justifiable choice. It doesnât seem like it was a very effective choice (given the current state of Stratholme) but hindsight is 20/20. Iâm more than willing to grant that it is questionable.
Killing the mercenaries who helped him burn the boats was clearly not a âgoodâ action. Arthas likely mentally justified it as for the greater good, considering that he needed to stop his father from recalling him and his troops so that he could stop the Scourge and save his kingdom. In reality it was mostly a single-minded bloodlust to kill MalâGanis.
After that point though this becomes a question of agency and I think people will justifiably differ on this front. Once Arthas grabbed Frostmourne where does his culpability begin and end? I donât have an answer. I do think it is worth considering as a âmitigatingâ factor in his actions.
According to wowwiki after Arthas killed MalâGanis he lost the last remnants of his sanity, leaving his troops to fend for themselves. Itâs easy to say he couldâve fought the will of the Lich King, but did he not because he wanted to do the things he did or did he just not have enough willpower (needed to stack resistance gear)? Supposedly Arthas fought the Jailer/Lich King/whomever to prevent the Scourge from completely overrunning Azeroth.
But if we write it off as the doing of the Lich King, it becomes the responsibility of a magic hat. When it comes time for assigning culpability it is difficult to say a magic hat did it. It also makes it easy to write off blame for individual actions. Itâs not even âNâzoth made me do it,â it becomes, âMy sword made me kill people.â Thatâs a bit off-putting.
Regardless, the Arbiter sent few souls directly to the Maw, so at worst heâd end in Revendreth to atone for his pride. I could also see him in Bastion if the Arbiter decided he lacked all agency after touching Frostmourne.
Yeeaah nothing wrong with genocide, tainting the Hordeâs reputation forever, start a world war and deliberately work for a god of death.
Itâs okâŚcause if you get reeeeeeeaaally butthurt about it, all the suffering you caused in a global scale will be washed away.
Dude, stop being a kid. There are things that canât just be forgiven, when you cause death in a INDUSTRIAL SCALE that gets in the ââbeyond redemptionââ territory
Itâs so asinine itâs almost poetic <3
Iâm just imagining the cowed faces of the story team when red shirt guy confronted them about Falstad as I read this.
One thing that really exemplifies her villainy is the willingness to send the very people she was damned to begin with defending into the maw for eternal torture or true destruction. She is even responsible for the Scourge being a threat to them again. Quelâthalas is among the places seemingly first in line after Northrend to be swallowed by hole she tore in the mortal realm.
Maybe part of Kaelâthasâ redemption should be taking an important role against her.
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If theyâre gonna do it, itâd probably be best to not have her return to the Horde, so the Forsaken can have some depth beyond doing what she tells them to do.
Redeemed or not, the Night Elves deserve justice. Tyrande collecting Sylvanasâ severed head is what is called for.
What do you want in your Sylvanas redemption bag? Besides the usual sugary goodies that is.
I disagree.
Between the events of the Gathering, where Anduin literally confronted her about leaving his father, his intuition of the Light which told him she wasnât lying and his admission that he wished he had more time to work together with her to form a peace between the Alliance and the Forsaken. Pair that with the fact that It was clear in snippets of Robert Brooks writing especially in A Good War and Son of the Wolf, that there have been parallels building between Sylvanas and Anduin since at least prior to Battle for Azeroth.
Writing wise, this conclusion with Anduin being the one to âreachâ her isnât far fetched.
Thing is we already seen this type of story before in Starcraft 2 where a Female Villain after she did alot of murdering of almost all the races and ends up being a golden light XelâNaga. Itâs kind of the thing that people are really worried for the future of WoWâs Writing for Sylvanas. Another Kerrigan.
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All I want is for some semblance of character development. The story is (retconned) that Sylvanas has been serving the Jailer since the death of the Lich King - so letâs see some of this. Have someone send Chromie a message and let her time travel us along the story. Let her have a diary that magically relays events in full memory form.
The worst part of the Sylvanas arc is the lack of arc. Sheâs been working for the Jailer since she tried to commit suicide, but a decade later she amps up the mass murder part. We donât know what sheâs âdoneâ or what happened along the way because itâs all being added retroactively and we are just living with some hand-waving at it to pretend it was true all along. And thatâs fine - I understand - but reveal some of it now.
Letâs find out she met the Jailer and it was love at first sight and they plotted the destruction of the cosmos over cosmos. Or that she has spent the entire time tight rope walking serving him and undermining him. Or that sheâs slowly seen herself undertake more reprehensible actions for the Jailer and changed. Or whatever storyline they throw at it.
But basically we were told (offscreen) that her and Saurfang planned an assault - her goal was to kill Malfurion but due to Saurfang getting feels, she burned down a city. We get to play some of it - begrudgingly it seems. Then Saurfang got some friends to help him face Sylvanas - but he didnât know she flasked and when she got cut she decided to delete him and rage quit her faction. Then she leveled up and face rolled Bolvar before splitting the realms open before peacing out to hang with the dead.
Next thing you know, sheâs torturing the leaders of Azeroth with her new bestie she apparently has been besties with for a FRIGGIN DECADE (we are told off screen).
I just would like a story thatâs a little more nuanced than âPew pew, sheâs really bad now and super powerful and works for the most evilest guy ever!â
Redemption? Forgiveness? I donât even care - but give me something that doesnât seem like it was written by a teenager on speed.
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