To me, her Queen of Blades persona is essentially a different person. Would she have made those choices as a human?
When players criticize the orcs and their redemption, there’s more anger to what they did before drinking the blood than after.
The cornerstone of the forsaken narrative is that they have free will. Sylvanas, while traumatized, has free will.
What people should understand is that the Starcraft writers are not the same as Warcraft ones. They should know that the Kerrigan arc was not well received.
Didn’t Kerrigan’s redemption end up with her becoming some kind of space angel or god? With my highly canvassed opinion sourcing of one person, they were more annoyed with the reward aspect instead of the redemption by itself.
She became a xel naga, of course kerrigan was basically “under the influence” while making all those atrocities, it takes the edge from wanting to make her appear on a snuff film, it just comes off as weird… out of the left field…
One of the problems of “brainwashed and crazy” is when said character gets better, you can hardly fault the character for acting like they did even if people point fingers at them its quite unsatisfying since you as a reader know the character wasnt in control, specially if someone else did make the character crazy, hence if you were looking for retribution you get none, you just get a totally different person paying for the crimes of their crazy alter egoes, no catharsis there (unless you were going for tragedy maybe).
This is what I fear Sylvanas will get. She will get away scot free and be “rewarded” after everything she has done instead of having to pay the piper for anything she has done.
The same can be argued about Sylvanas and her undead persona vs the living Ranger General who we only ever caught a glimpse of in WC3. The question can be asked: is it undeath that makes her evil or is it the traumas of every bad thing that’s happened over the years? Or both?
Or maybe she was secretly evil in life as well? Maybe, but I doubt it.
Considering we see multiple other undead who aren’t genocidal maniacs I think that we can firmly say Sylvanas being undead is not the reason she is a nutjob, and using it as an excuse for her actions is quite lame.
I’d call it a strong contributing factor though, given that it’s shaped her entire worldview since then. This stuff isn’t exactly secret knowledge in-universe though, which makes it all the more frustrating that Blizzard made a story beat about putting the worst possible choice at the head of a global superpower and then…played it entirely straight, meanwhile the rest of the horde pulls a Shocked Pikachu face because they simultaneously thought it was a horrible idea yet didn’t see it coming.
But as I said, the cornerstone of forsaken society is that they have free will. It’s why the scarlets and humans are deemed bad for shooting first, and why the horde and argents are deemed good for accepting them.
At best I can say the trauma affected her choices. But when that involves wiping cities and allying with WoW satan, I’m not sure it’ll amount to a redemption.
Lor’themar isn’t. Nathanos I grant, as is Arthas and Kel’thuzad, but the Shadowlands makes that a bit of a non-issue. Heck, why couldn’t she meet up with her mother in the Shadowlands somewhere?
Especially when her most damning moment (burning teldrassil) was “all according to plan”. Like why is she doubting herself now when clearly she wants to be the big bad villain? This is why I felt that burning teldrassil should’ve been a knee jerk reaction to Dalaryn (someone who was written to be a mirror of Sylvanas) refusing to give up hope.
Sigh, if given the proper motivation there is nothing wrong conceptually with setting Sylvie on some form of redemptive path. Whether she gets redeemed, and how that redemption does not equate to forgiveness are different matters. Matters that are far more complex and problematic.
The issue is largely that Anduin should not be a sufficient catalyst for that change, and that if Sylvie truly believes she has no choice … then the boy king claiming she holds power in that room shouldn’t be what persuades her. Because if she’s right, the Jailor holds power, and the Arbiters system holds power. Even if she is the one handling that sword right then and there.
Thus, Sylvie should commit. Anduin should become the weapon. Then sometime after the truth of her trip to the Maw is revealed. That it was the Jailor and her very own Primes that have been playing her; and that her seeing “The World as it Really Is” was merely her “Seeing the World as someone Wanted her to”. And she turned herself into Arthas on the foundations of a lie.
A false, convenient story and a bit of theatre, and that crumbling of the foundation of her twisted ideology. Then, because she’s been portrayed as integral in the formation of “The Jailor’s Weapon”, she can be the insight we need in how to deny him that … and by extension rescue Anduin. Then go from there.
Let me ask a key question: What would it really take to redeem her? Think about what she has done. How much would she really have to do in order to balance those scales? I would argue even her sacrificing herself would not do it. She has a lot to answer for. The amount that would have to be done to balance the scales is not something that could fit into a lifetime, let alone the story telling of the game.
In the end, redemption may be possible. But it is not possible to see it in game. Maybe starting the path to redemption. But not actually being redeemed. Which is why arguably the only really plausible and viable redemption arc for her is that she end up in Revendreth looking at at least a few centuries.
This is partially true. And it is really been the biggest issue with story telling around Sylvanas for much of WoW. She never really faced consequences for anything. The line we were always fed is ‘they are watching her.’ But much of her story has been Sylvanas does bad things and everyone ignores it.
That said, consequences are not the only thing. The turn has to be believable. She can’t go from the full on villain she is now to suddenly a good person. That is not believable. Her start on redemption can’t be a complete 180. It has to be in line with everything she has done. And that means best case she does one good thing before being captured and sent to Revendreth.
I disagree strongly. The character has done more damage to both factions than some supposed cosmic level threats. Attempting to brush her BFA actions under the rug is only adding fuel to the dumpster fire that is her narrative. She is a mass murderer, a traitor, and willing aid to a being that is akin to Warcraft Satan. She cannot be redeemed logically within the confines of her actions. She revels in carnage and cruelty and strives to make her victims more miserable while doing so.
It’s less about Anduin himself and more about the situation he is in. That being essentially the same situation that Sylvanas saw in her last moments as a ranger general. If she turns Anduin into this weapon of the Jailor’s she’s essentially doing the exact same thing to him as Arthas did to her, surrendering her last shreds of humanity in the process.
Anduin isn’t some Mary sue to where only he can reach out to Sylvanas, in fact you could replace him with any well spoken person who fought against her and get the same result. What’s causing her her hesitate is the scenario.
This is also supported when you consider that Anduins words have had very little effect on Sylvanas in the past. It’s not till now where they carry weight.
I was expecting to eyeroll at a different speech from after "I disagree’ but surprisingly, you made good points. Kudos to you. lol
Ultimately, I feel most can agree it’s not the initial redeeming that a majority called bad writing (Though I still know many do) – It’s the way it was done.
I felt this comment was rather arrogant & ignorant- I mean, I don’t know if you’ve played the Night Fae campaign, but I feel they never shut up about Teldrassil
That being stated, everytime Tyrande comes on screen she’s raging about it. Heck even when you’re helping her as Horde – despite saving the world or being a hero (Or a TAUREN + DRUID in my case!) you get trash talked over it!
Everytime Horde characters are mentioned working with the Alliance, they mention the relationship between them are tenuous given those events.
Honestly Tyrande needs to work a little less on blind-vengeance & finger pointing, and working on saving the souls of her slain kin, and building a new future for her living people. Ultimately: Learn from Kael’Thas Sunstrider’s mistakes.
Hard-To-Swallow Pill of a Fact:
– If the xenophobe Tyrande raged less, and was willing to accept aid she would have succeeded in her goal. We’ve encountered Sylvanas more times than she has since being in the Maw, and have appeared to met (And rescued) more souls of her kin.
Yeah, I really doubt she cares enough about her victims to revel in their deaths and suffering. In the same vein she didn’t care about her Forsaken more then their need to be a useful tool for her; one that simply ran out of value. And I said nothing about “redeeming” Sylvanas if you read. I said that on a bare-bones conceptual basis there is nothing wrong with putting her on a redemptive path. That doesn’t necessarily translate into her getting redeemed, and absolutely doesn’t translate into her being forgiven.
The point of my post is simply to give a functional, sufficient catalyst for such a change in her. One that does not revolve around the slumber party lectures with teen-boy heart-throb young Brad Pitt here. Thus, if you want Sylvanas to change her course in any fashion, you need to shatter her world-view that put her on her current one. In as jarring a way as possible for her.
