The vindication of Sylvanas

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

Only replying when you can cherry-pick. Predictable. By the way, you claim to ignore people who disagree with you… but you keep replying to them. How do you know they’re replying? I don’t think you actually ignore them.

[Mawthorne-lightninghoof]

@Finninbas-moon-guard

my suspicions tells me that Maw guy is micah, but I could be wrong… I have an issue telling forum posters of the same race and class apart.

Lol, this Maw guy cant change his forums Character. But this Maw guy is Wileigh-Lightninghoof, Savagemaw-Proudmoore, Beardbrush-Proudmoore, and I don’t think I have made forums posts as anyone else.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

Your sophistry has become amusing. Thank you for giving me a laugh.

[Finninbas-moon-guard]

Yeah I forgot to take post count into account

[Karestae-moon-guard]

I used to love Sylvanas, like a lot. It does suck how bad blizz mishandled her character, but…I also don’t think she’s nearly as bad as people make her out to be either.

[Mawthorne-lightninghoof]

Like… not to derail the thread further, but I think we can agree its a trainwreck at this point…

If a guy did try to rebrand himself, calling him out is kicking him while he’s down. Even if hes repeating the same patterns under his new brand, he at least recognized where those patterns got him under his old brand.

Back in 2001 I had to rebrand myself on a MUD, because I made a joke my 18yo self thought was hilarious, but my audience did not. I quoted the opening lines of a Blood for Blood song and everyone found it extremely offensive. I didnt know how to recover but I really liked the community, so I rerolled my character and started over. If someone called me out on that because I typically forgot apostrophes, or misspelled tomorrow, that would have probably made me really depressed. Who knows, at that age? I dont want to think where I would have been emotionally.

[Luxio-arathor]

Chains of Domination PTR is going to come out in two weeks and when new datamined leaks from the new raid come out we will see what happens. Until then I’m happy to wait for a resolution either way.

[Karestae-moon-guard]

If she ends up getting a redemption I’ll be happy for her fans who stuck with the character. I just hope they don’t do her dirty again though. That’s really my main concern.

[Luxio-arathor]

I hope they don’t but I’d be lying if I said Danuser’s comments lately haven’t been giving me hope, I just hope it’s not false hope.

When he said that by the end of this patch we would understand Sylvanas better I was hoping he’d give us more than vague suggestions that she had no control of her life. I would have rather they given us actual proof of that instead of just her own opinion that she felt powerless. Because no one would suspect her of being powerless. Anduin is right in some cases she does hold all the power.

[Mawthorne-lightninghoof]

@Karestae-moon-guard

If she ends up getting a redemption

I dont want a redemption. I dont care if Sylvanas is vindicated. I want the people who have been saying “In EoN Sylvanas changed, and in Legion Sylvanas was looking out for her people, and if they say she planned all this stuff back then its a retcon!”- I want those people to be vindicated.

They could have just dropped an asteroid on Sylvanas and Id be like “wow… didnt see that coming” but what they have been doing, probably accidentally, is gaslighting Sylvanas fans. I hope that they took great care to show that Sylvanas fans were right about EoN and the Broken Shore… even if Sylvanas was wrong in BfA.

[Karestae-moon-guard]

That’s fair and nothing wrong with that either, since we all want different things from the story

[Luxio-arathor]

Redemption is relative though.

I know she will never be redeemed in the eye of her critics, but it is important that she’s redeemed in the eyes of her fans, That is important of the longevity of a popular character.

Redemption is more than just atoning for her sins it’s also about how the audience receives this character. even if she doesn’t atone of her sins I hope she’s redeemed as a character, if that makes any sense. She can be evil as long as it’s receptive.

[Mawthorne-lightninghoof]

I mean, Id be fine if she just walked away from it all like ENOUGH!!! I’m going back to undercity.

Then changed out of her stupid maw costume and back into her Wrath era midriff leathers, clicky-clacked her high-heels with her confident strut all the way out of the room before we were un-stunned, and we go back and UC is inexplicably back to normal and shes just chilling in the Royal Quarter, ordering more Plague Shipments…

Like, I dont need a redeemed Sylvanas, I was happy the way she was.

[Luxio-arathor]

I wish we could just erase the last four years too…

But I would love nothing more than for Sylvanas to be right about the faults of the Horde and return as it’s rightful warchief empowered by Vol’jin’s authority and support.

[Karestae-moon-guard]

Trust me, most of us miss the old sassy, confident as hell Sylvanas. It’s a real tragedy how bad her character has been handled the last couple years. Wrath/Cata Sylvanas was simply amazing, but that’s me.

[Luxio-arathor]

there’s nothing more terrible in Sylvanas’s writing in BFA than when she snubbed giving Rexxar and Valtrois a ride in her big boat.

BfA was so ridiculous at times.

[Luxio-arathor]

Arthas was never redeemed but his “Is it over father?” was redemption to his fans.

[Zarrín-zuljin]

@Droité-black-dragonflight

This is the argument she gave to Saurfang to get him on board with the conflict. It does not however automatically mean she felt the same herself. And this plan was also operating on the idea that the Death of Malf would create the desired wound. Which plays into that scene where Saurfang can’t quite figure out why she seemed so irritated that Tyrande would not also be on the field (as the plan required that the NEs have their leadership intact to put pressure on Anduin’s weak leadership).

That’s not accurate. The original plan that was pushed didn’t even mention the death of Malfurion - it assumed by taking Teldrassil they could use it as protection from a strike against the Undercity as well as a splintering of leadership.

“At first, yes. They will be furious, united against our aggression,” she said. “But what will the night elves want more than anything? They will demand that the Alliance help retake their conquered home.”

But the Alliance will not have the strength, not in Kalimdor, not with their fleets.

Again. She had done it again. She had opened his mind to a new possibility, and the world shifted under his feet. The strategic implications spun out before him like the Maelstrom. “It will take years before they can even consider retaking Darnassus.”

“You understand, High Overlord,” Sylvanas said. “Think it through. What happens next?”

“They might try to conquer the Undercity . . . but Darnassus becomes our hostage against that. The night elves will not allow your city to fall if they fear it means you will destroy theirs. The same goes for a strike against Silvermoon.” Saurfang’s thoughts raced. She’s right. This could work. “And even if the Alliance agrees to retake Darnassus . . . The Gilneans!”

Sylvanas’s eyes disappeared beneath the edge of her hood. “They lost their nation years ago. The Gilneans will be furious if the Alliance acts to help the kaldorei first,” she said. “The boy in Stormwind will have a political crisis on his hands. He is smart, but he is not experienced. What happens when Genn Greymane, Malfurion Stormrage, and Tyrande Whisperwind all demand differing actions? He is not a high king like his father. The respect the others give him is a courtesy, not an obligation. Anduin Wrynn will rapidly become a leader who cannot act. If the Alliance will not march as one, each nation will act in its own interest. Each army will return home to protect their lands from us.”

Then they ran into the major stumbling block in their plan, Tyrande and Malfurion both were simply too powerful for the entire Horde military as well as the Horde heroes involved (Sylvanas, Saurfang, and Nathanos) to actually take Teldrassil. Which is hilariously true and emphasizes just how sad of a predicament the Horde is in narratively.

Sylvanas Windrunner took a deep breath and then hissed it out in frustration. “If we have no other options, I will handle them myself.”

Saurfang said nothing for a while. It was a bad idea, but at the moment, it was the best one they had.

Saurfang and Sylvanas had discussed strategy and tactics for days, and it had become clear that there were two huge, inescapable points of failure in their plan: Malfurion Stormrage and Tyrande Whisperwind. The leaders of the night elves were powerful, dangerous, and perhaps even unbeatable on the field of battle. No matter how surprised the kaldorei would be by this attack, those two would be a terror for the Horde once the fighting began. They had lived for so long, and survived so much, that Saurfang had to consider the possibility that they could hold off the Horde long enough for the Alliance to send help. Ashenvale was their land, after all. They would rally nature itself to their cause.

Sylvanas could match one of them—perhaps—but even she knew that taking them on by herself was . . . not an ideal tactic. Disinformation would not be very useful toward solving the dilemma. What false information could you hand a flock of Alliance spies that would make Darnassus conclude that both of its leaders needed to stay out of the war once it began?

“We wait for an opportunity,” Saurfang muttered. “And if they give us one, we take it.”

Sylvanas agreed.

Then the opportunity arose when Tyrande left for Stormwind, but Sylvanas hesitated because Saurfang wanted to push their attack timeline up by 3 weeks. He said it was because Tyrande being gone helped fix the odds - even though they would no longer have a 12 to 1 advantage (and instead only be 8 to 1). Sylvanas then point out that Tyrande returning to the battlefield would be a major problem (especially with fewer troops) and getting her back there could be done very quickly.

But for some reason, the warchief was hesitating.

“You wanted to launch the attack in three weeks, High Overlord,” she said.

“That was when I believed we needed to handle Tyrande and Malfurion. Now we only need to contain one of them,” he replied. “We’ll have a few less soldiers ready for the fight, but we’ll still outnumber the night elves—eight‐to‐one instead of twelve‐to‐one.”

Sylvanas considered that. “What stops Tyrande from rushing right back to battle? Moving an army from Stormwind in a blink is not possible. Moving a single creature is much easier,” she said darkly.

It was possible, Saurfang knew, but not likely. “How many innocent lives will Tyrande sacrifice to kill a few of our soldiers?” he asked. “That is the question she will face. She will not know of the attack until it has begun. By the time Stormwind makes sense of it, it will be clear that we will overrun Darnassus.

Tyrande can slow us down by joining the battle after we’ve already made major strides into their territory, or she can use her power to speed up the evacuation and heal the wounded. If she does not believe she can stop us, there’s no choice to make. She will save her people.”

So, what does Sylvanas do in response? I didn’t even bother going into this aspect, but I always found it to be really odd in light of the eventual depiction of her wanting to cause as much bloodshed as possible.

Sylvanas tapped her fingers on the table, thinking. “Let us make sure Tyrande does not return. The kaldorei evacuation—it helps us if they use every resource to get their people off the World Tree before we arrive, correct?”

“I believe so, Warchief,” Saurfang said. It would reduce the number of prisoners the Horde would need to care for, it would take fighters off the line to guard the evacuation, and it would mean that most of the Alliance’s magic wielders would need to remain on Teldrassil to assist instead of joining the battle in Ashenvale.

She pointed to the map. Darkshore. “We need to frighten them before we arrive here. If they decide to fight instead of run, the final step of this battle will be messier than all the rest,” she said. “What can we do to make the civilians of Teldrassil so afraid they can think of nothing but running?”

She wants to scare the civilians into fleeing instead of making a desperate last stand. While there is mention of the impact of killing both Malfurion and Tyrande, the issue ends up arising when Malfurion escapes.

This battle was not about a piece of land. Even Saurfang knew that. Taking the World Tree was a way to inflict a wound that could never heal. Losing their homes and their leaders would have ended the kaldorei as a nation, if not a people. Even the loss of one leader would have been enough to create a tide of despair. The wounds of this battle would have bled, festered, decayed, and rotted the Alliance from the inside out. Anduin Wrynn would have lashed out in a final, desperate war, looking for a miracle, because only a miracle would save them.

But a miracle already had. A miracle granted by the honorable hand of a foolish old orc.

And an overconfident warchief. Best to lay blame where it belonged. This was her mistake as much as Saurfang’s.

This conquest of Darnassus would rattle the kaldorei people. They would grieve for their lost, fear for their imprisoned, and tremble at the thought of the Horde ransacking their homes. But they would not fall to despair. Not anymore. Malfurion’s impossible survival would give them hope. Their wound would heal.

Even in this dark hour, they would say, Elune still watches over us.

Basically, their plan to splinter the Alliance now had instead empowered them. She then tries to think of a new way to pursue the goal of a wound that wouldn’t heal while talking to Summermoon. She goes with “let’s burn the tree” (thanks Blizzard) but Saurfang actually agrees with it!

“They will come for us now. All of them!” he said.

“I know.” She was calm, as though nothing were wrong. “They will attack the Undercity in retaliation. You will need to plan our defenses. Begin evacuating my people.”

He struggled to form words. Finally, pure hatred made him spit out a condemnation. “You have damned the Horde for a thousand generations. All of us. And for what? For what?”

Her expression didn’t waver. “This was your battle. Your strategy. And your failure. Darnassus was never the prize. It was a wedge that would split the Alliance apart. It was the weapon that would destroy hope. And you, my master strategist, gave that up to spare an enemy you defeated. I have taken it back.

When they come for us, they will do so in pain, not in glory. That may be our only chance at victory now.”

He wanted to kill her. He wanted to declare mak’gora and spill her blood in front of Horde and Alliance alike.

But she was right.

A wound that can never heal. That had always been the plan. And Saurfang had failed to inflict it.

The story of Malfurion’s miraculous survival would have spread among the armies of the Alliance as proof that they were blessed in their cause.

War would still have come. That had been certain the moment Saurfang had led the Horde into Ashenvale. And it would have been what he had feared most: the meat grinder, spending so many lives

to achieve so little, ending with a whimper, and thus dooming future generations to a war nobody could win. Once again, Sylvanas had seen it before he had.

And so . . .

She had sent a message. This was not a war that would end in a stalemate. Not now. The Alliance and the Horde would both understand that the only choices were victory or death. Lok‐tar ogar.

Malfurion’s escape was the issue, not the fact that she didn’t kill Tyrande and Malfurion. It wasn’t even so much that Malfurion didn’t die - it’s that his miraculous escape would create hope among the Alliance that they were the righteous ones and that would help them fight. Instead, she had to take another action to help inflict a wound that would never heal, so that maybe it would weaken the Alliance enough so the Horde could win.

(Later we get the explanation that she needed to create a war with as many casualties as possible so the plan all along was to burn Teldrassil and start a bloodbath. Thanks again Blizzard.)

[Luxio-arathor]

@Zarrín-zuljin

if’s that his miraculous escape would create hope among the Alliance that they were the righteous ones

it’s also the added layer that Elune intervened to help Malfurian. There are actual cosmic forces working against the Horde and Sylvanas. In A Good War and Darkshore, Sylvanas seems aware that Elune is taking action against her.

When you have a literal God on your side or working against you it’s not a fair fight.

Night Elves literally have Elune plot armor. The only way to strike back at Elune is to wipe out her followers.

[Karestae-moon-guard]

Would be hilarious, at least to me, if Sylvanas pulls a Nagash(from Warhammer Fantasy) and becomes a literal death goddess. Would give a new meaning to whole Dark Lady watch over you.

Just something fun to think about mind you.