The vindication of Sylvanas

[Luxio-arathor]

let’s talk about Propaganda for a second, because Elegy paints Sylvanas as a boogeyman and a monster… but then you have thing’s like the following in A Good War

These Horde soldiers had not died in a flash of fire—they had burned slowly, in agony, screaming.

The night elves had done everything they could to prolong the horror, to maximize the pain.

Malfurion would be very upset to see what his people have done, Sylvanas thought. The wound is open. The bleeding has begun, but they use their hatred in such pitiful ways.

The kaldorei knew they were outnumbered. They knew their homeland was lost. Maybe a few of them knew in their hearts—just as she knew—that Darnassus would one day burn to ashes. All they could do, in their rage, was make these poor souls suffer.

They had used their power not to win a battle or buy time for their people’s evacuation, but to inflict pain and nothing else. Their fury had stripped away every civilized pretense, every semblance of honor, and they had shown who they truly were.

That was what war did. That was what it was for: to give civilized beings permission to do the unthinkable.

This text is certainly doing a lot to smear the Kaldorei as savage, and not looking out for what’s best for their people. The first time I read this I thought this was Sylvanas being self aware about war, but she could also be telling herself they are savage and cruel in attempt to disconnect emotionally from having to kill them all later.

She’s justifying it to herself that they all need to die, which then leads into her This is War comment when Delaryn challenges her and projects her past self back to her.

I think A Good War was so well written because it contains these kinds of passages that you can read over and over and get different layers every time you read them.

[Luxio-arathor]

honestly I think this would fit pretty good into what they have already set up for her to become some sort of para shakti character.

[Luxio-arathor]

Their fury had stripped away every civilized pretense, every semblance of honor, and they had shown who they truly were.

I think is is also a comment on the nature of the Forsaken and Sylvanas since they became undead, there’s this question always hanging over the Forsaken narrative of how far we have truly moved away from the Scourge.

Which in itself is a good Forsaken meta.

If Sylvanas’s fury is all she has left is she really lost? If that was the only thing she has left then yes she would be lost but she still has hope and that’s the real Shadowlands Sylvanas meta.

[Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord (Irenaus)]

Also fitting because Nagash sucks.

[Droité-black-dragonflight]

@Zarrín-zuljin

Malfurion’s escape was the issue, not the fact that she didn’t kill Tyrande and Malfurion. It wasn’t even so much that Malfurion didn’t die - it’s that his miraculous escape would create hope among the Alliance that they were the righteous ones and that would help them fight. Instead, she had to take another action to help inflict a wound that would never heal, so that maybe it would weaken the Alliance enough so the Horde could win.

Right, that is a point. But that is not the reason she ultimately burned the tree. Because ultimately she came to the conclusion after talking with Summermoon that killing Malf and (preferably) Tyrande would not have resulted in the wound she had intended. But the burning of Teldrassil would have. She also gave up any attempt to “divide” the Alliance the moment she decided to burn the Tree, while holding the Tree hostage was still very much a viable choice even with Malf surviving. With even Tyrande and Anduin expecting that as the resolutioni. Sylvie also could have killed Malf herself if his death was such a necessity, rather than play games with Saurfang (and that clearly is what she was doing, she did not order him to take the kill for his benefit).

Regardless, this also doesn’t deal with the underlying fact that the reasons she gave him to get on board with the War were utter BS. Or at least, they were arguments that she knew would work on him … but it seems highly suspect she shared them. Even Lux understands she never cared about the Horde at least; just a tool to be used for some grander personal objective. Ogmot remains just about the most accurate prophet in the entire franchise, and she was his Laughing Shepherd. And its clear her objective was maximum casualties on all sides; which plays into the idea that most of her BfA tactics only make sense if her priorities were escalating and prolonging the War. Nothing she did really makes sense if her intent was to win it on the Horde’s terms.

[Luxio-arathor]

@Droité-black-dragonflight

She also gave up any attempt to “divide” the Alliance the moment she decided to burn the Tree

She did divide the Alliance. Her plan succeeded. Tyrande refused to play handball in BfA with Anduin because the Alliance troops were too stretched thin in the Arathi Warfront to help reclaim Darkshore, and out of loyalties to the kaldorei the Worgen followed suit. There’s still a giant rift in the Alliance because Genn and Tyrande didn’t believe in or sign the armistice. We are in a divergent plot right now in the Shadowlands but this will come back up again later.

Shadows Rising set up a minor conflict with Alleria and Jaina because Alleria and Turalyon are making microaggressions against the Horde which may be seen as a breach of the armistice, and could lead to Talanji gaining the support of the Horde council to retaliate over Dazar’Alor.

Oh the story set up in BfA is far from over.

[Karestae-moon-guard]

I mean, you’re entitled to your opinion

[Grandblade-wyrmrest-accord (Grandblade)]

@Luxio-arathor

Her plan succeeded.

Not really. Let’s take a look at all your examples:

@Luxio-arathor

Tyrande refused to play handball in BfA with Anduin because the Alliance troops were too stretched thin in the Arathi Warfront to help reclaim Darkshore, and out of loyalties to the kaldorei the Worgen followed suit.

And none of that was unsanctioned by Anduin, even though he doesn’t have the authority to ban them from going. Past all that, the Alliance eventually DID go to aid Tyrande in Darkshore - and she won. This “rift” that Sylvanas caused led to Tyrande entirely undoing all of the landgrabs that the Horde earned in the War of the Thorns.

@Luxio-arathor

There’s still a giant rift in the Alliance because Genn and Tyrande didn’t believe in or sign the armistice.

But they respect it. Neither of them have broken the armistice - they simply don’t agree that it will hold, which is reasonable. There’s people on the Horde, like Rokhan or the Mag’har meatheads who believe all the same. They don’t, however, do anything to disrupt it. Genn (who went as far as to admit not all the undead were monsters in Before the Storm) has voiced nothing but support for Anduin’s decisions, and his only opposition to the armistice (that he DID sign, mind you) has been voicing his doubts. Tyrande on the other hand (who was the most vocal dissident) has gone as far as to be willing to meet with the Horde and tell them altogether HOW they can make things right with the Kaldorei - by bringing them the head of Sylvanas.

Tyrande doesn’t WANT to go to war with the Horde, and neither does Genn.

And I’m not even gonna address Turalyon or Talanji, because those things really have nothing to do with Teldrassil’s burning. Sylvanas claims that the Burning would divide the Alliance, but all it did was spur them into intense and powerful action. You know what she DID divide though? The Horde. She literally divided it all the same as Garrosh, to the point that there was almost a second Siege of Orgrimmar.

If this was her plan, then Sylvanas is a godawful tactician. Which, if we assume Sylvanas is pro-Horde (she’s not) and given that she lost every major battle of the Fourth War, we pretty much already knew.

@Luxio-arathor

But I would love nothing more than for Sylvanas to be right about the faults of the Horde and return as it’s rightful warchief empowered by Vol’jin’s authority and support.

This will not occur. Nothing resembling this will occur. The Horde as a majority despises her now, and Vol’jin now KNOWS that she only became Warchief because he was tricked by a malevolent Loa who she’s working with.

She is not the Horde’s rightful Warchief. She never was, and she never will be. Despite all the Horde’s faults, putting the person who tried to get as many of them killed as possible to feed super hell is nothing resembling the fix.

[Mawthorne-lightninghoof]

@Karestae-moon-guard

Would be hilarious, at least to me, if Sylvanas pulls a Nagash(from Warhammer Fantasy) and becomes a literal death goddess. Would give a new meaning to whole Dark Lady watch over you.

I have been predicting this since EoN as the eventual endgame for blizzard where Sylvanas is concerned. Garrosh notes her Godlike presence when she arrives in Silverpine. Then in BtS, Sylvanas is shown godlike visions by the Azerite. Then they announced that we were going to the SL, and its the perfect way to leave Sylvanas there and keep Forsaken worshipping her, assuming that they can redeem her to them.

[Morghel-daggerspine]

@Mawthorne-lightninghoof

I have been predicting this since EoN as the eventual endgame for blizzard where Sylvanas is concerned.

What in the world have you been smoking. I suggest laying it off for a while, or maybe forever.

[Mawthorne-lightninghoof]

@Luxio-arathor

I think A Good War was so well written because it contains these kinds of passages that you can read over and over and get different layers every time you read them.

Ive written before that one of the saddest failures of BfA is the quality difference between AGW and Elegy.

[Droité-black-dragonflight]

@Luxio-arathor

But I would love nothing more than for Sylvanas to be right about the faults of the Horde and return as it’s rightful warchief empowered by Vol’jin’s authority and support.

What on Earth are you talking about? Seriously, I have no idea what your opinion on Sylvie’s relationship with the Horde actually is? You seem to bounce between “she cares” and “they’re nothing” stances purely based on which of those two arguments would put her a more positive light; depending on the context of the criticism aimed at her. Honestly, it kind of comes off that the only value the Horde (Forsaken included) has is Sylvanas; and with her abandonment of them … their value went her?

Also, no, she should have never become the Warchief to begin with. Let alone again.

[Luxio-arathor]

Yeah but I think it boils down to Brooks was trying to write a thought piece, Golden was trying to write an emotional piece.

[Grandblade-wyrmrest-accord (Grandblade)]

@Droité-black-dragonflight

Honestly, it kind of comes off that the only value the Horde (Forsaken included) has is Sylvanas; and with her abandonment of them … their value went her?

That IS the mindset of the person who made the post we’re all talking in right now, and Luxio’s own mindset doesn’t seem that far off. It’s not a pro-Horde stance at all, it’s solely pro-Sylvanas and literally nothing else.

Which is totally fine, but it’s silly to pretend it’s anything but.

[Mawthorne-lightninghoof]

There is such a thing as foreshadowing.

Unfortunately, with serial narratives, early foreshadowing gets abandoned, like in GoT the theory that foreshadowing suggested that Brandon Stark was Bran the builder, and that he was going to use the power of the 3 eyed raven and end up back in time, building Winterfell as a future hedge against the white walkers, and becoming his own namesake. That it was Bran who started the legends and sayings of House Stark and the north. Things like Winter is Coming and The North Remembers. What does the north remember? That Bran the builder told them never to forget that Winter is coming so they have to build a fortress and a Stark will keep the fortress in good repair?

Theres a bunch of foreshadowing in GRRM’s writing that suggests this was a possible surprise end of the story, but likely got changed later in favor of the universally horrible final season.

Wow has a lot of Goddess forshadowing regarding Sylvanas. Wether they still plan to use it is anyones guess, but we didnt go to the Shadowlands to face Zovaal. We got Zovaal to have an excuse to go to the Shadowlands.

[Luxio-arathor]

They can’t be both?

She’s shown proof of both.

Like Mawthorne has tried to explain to you. Sylvanas had no love of the Horde until she began to bond with Vol’jin over the Horde rebellion against Garrosh, when Vol’jin made her Warchief her entire attitude towards the Horde shifted because she experienced belonging, but there was microagressions from Baine and Saurfang even before the Burning of Teldrassil, they seemed like they always questioned if she actually was in it for the Horde as a whole or if she was still only pushing a Forsaken agenda. Sylvanas’s own monolouge in Before the Storm proves both of those were true. She was trying to push a Forsaken agenda, in trying to get the Horde to see the value of wiping out the Alliance (the Fosaken’s enemies in the Eastern Kingdoms and supplanting the Alliance with Forsaken as the new order in the East, a goal she’s always wanted since vanilla, but she also showed a real and tangible care for the future of the Horde in a A Good War and the start of BfA.

She doesn’t talk about using the Horde as weapons or arrows like she did the Forsaken, she actually talks about building a future for the Horde and cares deeply about the Horde’s future generations, which again plays into the fact that Legion took Sylvanas on a very maternal spin, making her deeply aware that her people can’t reproduce and she became obsessed with finding a way for the Forsaken to continue to exist as a race.

At the end of the day though if Sylvanas had to choose between the Horde and the Forsaken, she’d choose the Forsaken… but then she abandoned them too in the end so who knows why Blizzard made that choice to have her abandon the Forsaken too.

[Morghel-daggerspine]

@Mawthorne-lightninghoof

There is such a thing as foreshadowing.

Let me explain to you, in simple terms, so that you will understand why your headcannon and wishes will remain just that. Because there is a perspective you haven’t given two rat behinds about. The Alliance one that is.

You’re basically saying that Sylvanas, the most hated character on the Alliance side, perpetrator of genocides, would be validated and become a god like being, to the benefit of the Forsaken. Off the backs of the genocide of an Alliance race. I think you can understand how that would make Alliance players, especially Night elven ones, feel.
Get out of your bubble before you choke in it. And before I self combust from reading your drivel.

[Karestae-moon-guard]

Sylvanas is one of the few complex and well written leaders we have in WoW. So it always bothered me when people act like it’s a black and white issue when it comes to her.

[Mawthorne-lightninghoof]

@Luxio-arathor

but then she abandoned them too in the end so who knows why Blizzard made that choice to have her abandon the Forsaken too.

She’s manic. When half your people show up to make you look bad and you have major insecurities… I mean… The Horde is nothing! tantrum was more in character than the War of Thorns cinematic.

[Luxio-arathor]

Speaking of GoT they complete butchered the Azor’ahai plot, I thought for sure they were setting up someone like Jaime Lannister because the books had soo much foreshadowing to that.

But yes I totally concur there was a lot of foreshadowing all along that Sylvanas would become a goddess.