-Only likes the Horde when the character you like is put in charge
-Gets upset when characters and other players are rightfully rebelling against her for being a cruel, apathetic, monster all expansion.
-Plays up said character as the victim of these circumstances despite being the main cause of it
This is legit some textbook Sylvanas victim complex. I’ve seen all I need from you, now.
What a selfish little mindset you seem to have. So determined to validate Sylvanas simply because she’s your favorite, yet so quick to try invalidating everyone else.
And yet the Horde is the one that took the Forsaken in. They’re the ones, despite all the pain the Forsaken and their leader has caused them over the years, who still shelters them. Who despite having nothing left of value to really offer the Horde in return in their weakened state, have been granted their seat at the Council Table. It is the Horde that shelters the Forsaken Refugees left homeless and broken because of the actions of the leader you insist cares about them. All while being unable point out what motivated that change in her.
It was the Horde that deliberately stuck with the Forsaken despite them doing the exact opposite of what was expected of them when they were allowed to join; under Cata+ Sylvanas’ leadership. As the Tauren vouched for them because they saw within the Forsaken the capacity to one day embody what Thrall’s Horde was supposed to represent. And tbh … with you taking Sylvie’s “Horde is Nothing Stance” (a used and abandoned Horde that includes her Forsaken, and thus they are nothing to) does make it clear why you seem so OK with validating Sylvie’s actions in BfA. Because, even knowing that doing so will come at the expense of EVERY character, EVERY Faction, and EVERY Theme opposing her right now … your investment is in her … not them. Even the “Nothing Forsaken” (Sylvanas came to pity) being sheltered by the “Nothing Horde” (her Alliance of Convenience).
EDIT: If anything, just by virtue of sticking with them through all the pain and mistrust, the Horde has proven the care FAR more about the Forsaken than Sylvanas ever has. And if they are allowed to rebuild and reclaim their homes (and pick themselves up form the horrific place Sylvanas left them) … its going to be the Horde that helps get them there. It is absolutely NOT going to be Sylvanas, who predictably … abandoned her tools again.
No Cairne Bloodhoof took the Forsaken in, The Horde rejected us, and Cairne Bloodhoof is dead now.
The only one left now is Cromush. If they kill off Cromush there’s no need for the Forsaken to be part of the Horde.
This is the loyalist PoV, there is no love of the Horde in the Loyalist PoV. There doesn’t have to be.
There is no place in the Horde for a Loyalist. The post Horde War campaign proved this when Loyalists were chained, tortured, humiliated, verbally abused and possibly killed by the Horde.
The only way back into the Horde is for the Horde to forgive Sylvanas. Which i don’t see happening… so I’m all for a third faction. At this point it’s the only way they can make it up to Loyalists.
No matter how much you may twist things in your head, the rest of the Horde did not trust the Forsaken (and over the years the Forsaken under Sylvie’s leadership absolutely validated that distrust). But Cairne was not the Warchief. He did not have final say. He merely vouched for their potential with Thrall, who was the one to let them into the Horde under Cairne’s recommendation. It was also Thrall that listened to Sylvie’s recommendation to extend a hand out to the BEs. And it was the HORDE (outside of Garrosh’s regime) that stuck with the Forsaken even after they have done every single thing within their power (under Sylvie’s leadership) to betray that good will of Cairne. By allowing her to turn them into the Scourge-lite from Cata onward. “A convenient Horde to be manipulated and used by the Forsaken/Sylvie like Cromush” is not a sign of caring.
You conflating the Garrosh era (and he hated EVERYONE who was not an Orc purist, even those Orcs who fell under Eitrigg’s sphere of influence) with the entire Horde … to somehow demonize them … to prop up the woman that just made the Forsaken homeless refugees and abandoned them again. Which was predictable, because she was never given a proper motivation to start caring for them more as people than her need to use them as tools. Outside of the expectation that she do so, purely because the alternative would make her a horrible person. And this is not a criticism of you, this is a criticism of Sylvanas. A Fictional Character.
I mean… Saurfang kind of pushed her hand and the way it was originally written, Undercity- her city- was a sacrifice she made so as not to waste horde lives.
Also it’s kind of hard to hate her when in the Silverpine Questchain she literally told us that she’d yeet this city before letting it fall into the Alliance’s hands and she kept her promise.
I think it was actually a really great Forsaken payoff.
I miss Undercity but if that’s the way it had to go, I was satisfied with that.
If Sylvanas does return to the Horde I hope Underhold is turned into the new Forsaken central hub, but I think the popular vote is a flying Necropolis, I guess the Ebon Blade can’t be the only deaders with cool toys.
OK, then I’m still waiting from either you or Maw to answer me on that essential question. Since your entire argument hinges on the idea that Sylvanas cared more about the Forsaken as people, more than her need to use them as tools … where was this motive given to her? Beyond your expectation that she just “have it” because it was expected of her? I’m waiting. Been waiting for 200 posts. Hell, both you said that pivotal transition in her character happened in MoP, during the Darkspear Rebellion. The expansion where prior to her showing up with Lor’themar in SoO, she only existed in a single passing comment from Vol’jin.
But … at this point. Expecting anything from you but burying Sylvanas under mountains of benefit of the doubt seems unlikely. She is always right, is the “real victim here”, and truly cares for her people she’s abandoned twice. And despite BfA revealing that HER entire motivation for the war was to create as large a death toll on both sides as possible (including her Forsaken), she somehow cares more about them then the Horde. Who stuck with them, despite all that. Because they rightly did not trust the Forsaken, and weren’t puppets like Cromush was. You don’t like the Horde, you ONLY like Sylvanas. And she is clearly your major investment in this story. I get it.
You can’t gaslight people and then turn around and make it about the story. You are just trying to justify gaslighting me over my different experience.
Like I have said you are absolutely entitled to your own opinion and interpretation, even projection of events or characters. what you can’t do is go around telling everyone who doesn’t share the same experience that they are wrong or that their personal experiences are not valid.
There would be some overlap, where there wouldn’t be an issue. For example, if the lore according to Legion is true that Elune made the Naaru (and now I’m thinking to be prepared for Light-hating WoW fans to use this as a greenlight to start assuming the worst about Elune too), it’s possible places scared to Elune and Light worshippers could be shared. It’s a shame that it seems we’re only learning about the Light when it’s getting villain-batted.
Yrel and Xe’ra would probably be on-board with the Sunwell since it holds M’uru’s freely given core.
If Sylvanas didn’t want to waste Horde lives in the Battle for Lorderaen, she wouldn’t have gotten those Forsaken with plague-sprayers to blanket the battlefield with Scourge plague while Horde wounded were still lying there. But she did, and they turned into skeletons.
How am I gaslighting you, when clearly its the truth. You DO twist things to constantly frame her in the best possible light, and give her the benefit of the doubt. Has there even been a single criticism of Sylvanas presented on her (no matter how small) that you have not attempted shift in focus to portray Sylvanas in a better way? You are a person who constantly asks for “written proof” of the stances others are taking on her, but on this major foundational point in your argument … that you are using to simultaneously glorify the Forsaken, and demonize the Horde … the only “proof” you have is taking the words of a known manipulative liar at face value.
Sylvanas was never given a reason to care about her people as people, more than her need to use them as tools. Outside of the implicit expectation of her fans that that be case, because the alternative would be horrific. And despite the Forsaken giving the Horde every reason in the World to not trust them; and despite their utter and repeated betrayal of Cairne’s goodwill for even vouching for them; the Horde (who still stands by them despite ALL of that) somehow cares less about the Forsaken than Sylvanas who’s abandoned them twice. A stance that falls entirely apart, if you can’t point out the motive (or when it was given to her) for her to have that change of heart about the Forsaken. Who she herself admits, “she only really came to pity”.
She didn’t manipulate Cromush. Cromush was put as a spy in the Undercity to watch over Sylvanas and keep her under Garrosh’s thumb. His proximity to the Forsaken actually changed his mind about them. It wasn’t a good relationship at first, but he gradually became accepting of the Forsaken, but his opinion turned on Garrosh and the Horde when he asked the noble Frostwolves for help in Silverpine/Arathi and they turned him down because of his connection to the undead, he was branded as an undead sympathizer as a negative. Cromush experienced firsthand the way Undead are treated by the “noble” orcs, the Horde, and the Living, and it solidified him more as Sylvanas’s ally.
There’s no such thing as “your truth” for anyone… There’s “the truth”, “your beliefs” and “your opinion”. You have a double standard where you allow only Sylvanas to have “ends justify the means” methods because you’re emotionally invested in, and borderline worship, Sylvanas…
All while denying “ends justify the means” to other characters with smaller body counts and more moral fiber. Your arguments for Sylvanas make my arguments for Yrel look like Tolstoy’s “War and Peace”, but even I have been able to criticize Yrel. Even if Blizzard pulls this “Sylvanas was right” card, it can’t come without Sylvanas facing some comeuppance for her actions.
You’ll probably ignore this, but I think it’s worth pointing out.
No, he didn’t. This has been proven entirely false by the order of events in a Good War. Sylvanas ordered Saurfang to take Malf’s head knowing he’s clearly conflicted about that axe in the back, and then when he shows up to reveal that Malf was saved just in time by Tyrande (which was technically true) … she has no way of verifying if that was true or not. Or the context of it. Even going so far as to consider whether Elune interfered and saved Malf; and it wouldn’t be surprising if she did (which Elune actually did interfere in a passive way). She then COMMITS to the invasion of the Tree; Talks to Delaryn; and based off what Delaryn tells her … she orders the burning.
Which means her blaming Saurfang for her decision to do so was BS, because Summermoon revealed to her that killing Malf would not have Sylvie’s desired effect. Which appeared to be to “create a wound that would not heal” to commit both sides to a conflict they could not back out of … to cause as large a death toll as possible. She even hints several times throughout that short story that she fully intended to destroy the Kaldorei civilization (despite that actively working in opposition to the plan she inspired Saurfang to make); implied she always expected Teld to burn eventually; and even admitted to herself that she expected she’d one day have to kill Saurfang (unless he came to see the world as she did, “as it really is”). Teld was based on her discussion with Summermoon.
I’ve provided actual examples of objective truth with novel quotes.
So… you kinda have my back with that one. Thanks!
Also “there is no such thing as personal truth” is a dogwhistle. There only exists personal truth. Each of us is individually experiencing our own reality. That’s a fringe strawman argument to push your own truth on others. With your pro-religious indoctrination stance… that doesn’t paint you in a positive light.
You’re just mad I, and others, pointed out your Islamophobia in another thread about Y’rel.
I go to sleep, enjoy eating some swedish “lantmanskost” with my relatives because its easter, studying for some exams etc, then i go read forums during a pomodoro break, to little or no surprise at all there has been 93 posts as of writing this, and it is still the same thing as when i left it last night…
Its stil Blizz dev #93 waiting for his chance to get fired whenever kotick wants to buy a new winery, that is defending sylvanas actions because of his loyalty to the company.
Come on guys its Christma-… easter.
go hunt some easter bunnies or watch some movies or something.
Actually, I said that her relationship to the horde changed through her interactions with Voljin. During the rebellion against Garrosh, which really started in Cata… when Sylvanas’ development really amped up, when they released EoN to set the stage for that development. You said she was barely present in MoP until Siege of Orgrimmar. Ok. Whatevs. Doesnt change the fact that between her suicide at ICC and Voljin handing Sylvanas the reins to the Horde, there was a shift from sneering at everyone, to looking like she was going to cry at being forced to choose between Voljin and being there for the Alliance at Broken Shore.
Voljin says “I never trusted you” which is silly because she was practically his second. When he got stabbed he didnt yell, “Baine! Sound the retreat!” He didnt say “Thrall, lets get outta 'ere mon!” He turned to Sylvanas and begged her, “don’t let the horde die dis day”.
From Cata starting zones to SoO, it is Voljin and Sylvanas who defied Garrosh, and that spirit of defiance of tyranny made them brothers in arms. Luxio already quoted lines from War Crimes and SoO. It has already been pointed out that Sylvanas referred to Voljin as “My Warchief” and not ironically. When Sylvanas is being sardonic, her voice drips with it. There was none of that between Sylvanas and Voljin.
Until then, Forsaken efforts were mostly separate from the other horde troop movements. Even in Ashenvale, the forsaken presence almost seems like it is under the nose of nearby orgrimmar, as opposed to in cooperation with. That is until Sylvanas begins to see herself more and more as a member of the Horde, under Voljin… because of Voljin (and in a lesser way, because of Varian who treated Sylvanas with cautious dignity because of Anduin).
Lux clearly likes Sylvanas, but Lux has also shared mountains of quotes with context to reject your clearly biased interpretation of the Sylvanas story. Lux has gone to great effort to do that, whereas I wont really. Unless I kniw exactly where to find the quote, I generally wont go looking to win an argument with someone who just omitted the very quote from the source they were citing because it didnt support their headcannon avout Sylvanas.
Actually, at this moment I’m tryin to see if I can get a normal BoD run to get the final peace of my fancy new Maldraxxus Themed Shaman Mog I’ve been working on. Wish me luck!
