I’m actually reading this really good book right now called The Denial of Death by Earnest Becker. You might like it. It helped me through some stuff relating to loss and how relationships in childhood with our parents can result in fear of death. I make no assumptions just sharing something from one human to another, I actually recommend everyone to read this book, it has some really great stuff about morality.
I’m so sorry to hear about your Father.
No the hell it wasn’t, you accused anyone who disagreed with you of having something wrong with them rather than separating a character from yourself. This is the worst possible outcome for a discussion.
This thread has been an enlightening peak into (what’s left of) the minds of people who are still simping hard for the Banshee Queen in 2021.
Nobody insulted your mental health. YOU, however, did so with other people. You’re not the victim here, you’re the perpetrator.
I personally hope not. I do think Voss will be a great leader. Healthy, supportive Zombies just dont do it for me.
Sadly, at this point, they’ve burned so many bridges that they better get to the point where they are at least more symbiotic with the other Horde races … or they are in real trouble.
I think Calia’s role in the story is going to be to demonstrate to Lillian, through some failure, that it must be Lillian Voss to lead the Forsaken. Calia is a tool in many ways to drive Lillian’s story. Like Thomas Zelling and Derek Proudmoore. The real developments in the Forsaken narrative are Voss’s developments. Her experiences. She has seen now, the common, predictable response of the living to the undead. The exceptional response of some living to the undead. She naively searches for someone “better” to lead the Forsaken, and thinks she has found it in Calia, but she’s going to learn soon that it was she, the whole time, that was meant to lead.
That was never her intention and you know it. Also, she never truly cared about people’s freedom. She made that abundantly clear when she decided on her own her own sister should die if she ever went to the Undercity to live with her.
“The ends justify the means”? What makes Sylvanas qualified to make that kind of judgement call on the cosmic scale?
Plus you prove hypocritical in your argument, since you argued against “the ends justify the means” when we were discussing that for Yrel. So when Sylvanas goes “the ends justify the means” it’s all “give her the benefit of the doubt”, “read between the lines”, “she might be right”, but try to apply the same concept to Yrel and “she’s a fanatic, bad for everyone”? What a double standard, especially since Yrel doesn’t even come close to matching Sylvanas’ laundry list of atrocities. Morality of an act isn’t based on you feel about the perpetrator.
While you make a good case for Warcraft’s afterlife being flawed, neither Sylvanas nor the Jailer has the right solution… they’re part of the problem and their “solution” is just as bad if not worse. Sylvanas’ motivation amounts to “I didn’t get what I want, therefore the (cosmic) system is bad”; at best Sylvanas is right for the wrong reasons, and I don’t even think she’s right.
Given Sylvanas’ plot armor, Blizzard seems to be giving into pressure from the “Yas queen!” Sylvanas fans.
“The family you choose” is similar to what Vol’jin said about the Horde. You don’t need just the Forsaken for that.
I’ve also got to call you out on making personal attacks on others, but getting angry or reporting people when they do it to you or disagree with you; that is disgusting hypocrisy.
In the movie Gaslight, a man repeatedly tells his wife that what she is experiencing is not reality- that she is crazy- in an attempt to make her question her own sanity. Predictably, this causes her to act increasingly irratic. That’s where we get the phrase gaslighting.
When you tell someone that what they are positive they experienced is not true, it is low key calling them crazy. When they give evidence based arguments supporting their experiences and you repeatedly dismiss those arguments as figments of the person’s imagination that is gaslighting. Its f-ing wrong and it almost always results in an emotional response. Which in turn almost always results in the gaslighter pointing to that response as evidence of their opponent’s mental instability.
It’s also very common. We do it to one another without realizing it. For no good reason… like, we aren’t trying to cover up a murder, we are arguing about the legitimacy of a person’s opinion regarding a fictional character.
We’ll always have HotS.
To give AU Grom some credit, he did help us defeat Archimonde. But that shouldn’t have completely earned the forgiveness of the Draenei and Frostwolves. That should’ve been earned after AU Grom helped purge Draenor of what Legion forces was left alongside Duraton and Yrel. Which we knew happened from the Mag’har orc recruitment chain (the purging the Legion part, not the forgiveness part). Then after the defeat of Sargeras, what seems to be AU Xe’ra showed up because the Legion was defeated and began to rally up the Draenei DUES VULT style against the Orcs.
inb4 they start calling you a stalker because they feel the need to be the victim. Apparently replying to them on two separate threads within “minutes” of eachother = stalking.
Makes more sense and would be a better story if the Draenei “Lux Vult” were to be a response to the Iron Horde (like the rl Crusades were a response to the Byzantine/Seljuk Wars - albeit with the goal of “retake Jerusalem” instead of “non-believers join or die”)
Regarding Sylvanas, it’d take a lot of good writing to wrap her story up, and I’m just so sick of her that one way or another I want the character to answer for her crimes and begone from the story.
Y’know, what boggles the mind about AU Grom at the end of WoD was that that clearly was based off the portrayal of AU Grom from the Hellscream Light Novel. Where, unlike many of the Warlords, his primary concern was truly the well being of the Orcish people and he was essentially just turned into another Ner’zhul by his son. It kind of gives off the impression that Yrel wasn’t the only WoD Primary character who’s character arc suffered from the entire center part of that Expac and story being gutted. There is a transition missing there…
As for Yrel now? Given the context of the Sermon of the High Exarch … ironically I buy it because it seems to be coming from the one place I was worried about with her. Velen giving her the power of precognitive visions without ANY instruction on how to either validate or properly interpret them. There are very few powers in all of fantasy that are more dangerous to just “give them the keys with no guidance” than that one. She was/is literally a Billy Batson without the Wisdom of Solomon part of his powers. And my god is that a recipe for misinterpretation of her visions, or even outright manipulation of her through them. Which I’d wager is what is happening with the Lightbound. Especially if the Light Mother is actually a Prime Naaru like Xe’ra. Yrel is Ner’zhul’d!
An Azerothian crusade in the vein of the actual crusades would be pretty fun imo. There’s more than enough ‘contested’ territory that the religious elements of the Alliance could lay claim to as being sacred, historic territories. e.g. the Silver Hand in Lordaeron or the Elune church in Ashenvale / all of northern Kalimdor, really.
I’d be interested to know Yrel and the Light Mother’s thoughts on the Sunwell, too.
Yes! this!
It feels like gaslighting when we try to open up and share our experiences only to be descended on by, a handful of the same people saying “no you are wrong!”
Wrong about my own personal experience? no I’m not.
As I’ve said “I like this character for XYZ reasons” only to have people verbally attack me so yes I attack back. The thing is, vulnerability often leads to gaslighting from narcissists. I knew full well that making myself vulnerable in this forum would bring out the sharks and I was right. But the point still stands they are the sharks. People who like this fictional character are not by default morally corrupt people.
There’s nothing wrong with vulnerability and liking a bad character, and this whole labeling of fans of those fictional character “weebs”, “Simps” and “mentally unstable.” is insulting. It needs to stop. There was a whole thread calling out these exact people and their bullying. call it what you want, bullying, gaslighting, manipulation… these are all abusive and toxic tactics.
When can we get to a point when we can talk positively about this fictional character without them turning into these kinds of threads?
No, the Horde can’t be that for me because the Horde doesn’t see the Forsaken as important.
The Horde choose to rebel against the character I want validated on the simple grounds that she’s undead. i have watched the Horde disrespect her, for no valid reason from Vanilla onward and that boils my blood.
That’s what puts me solidly in the Loyalist camp.
The Horde is nothing.
The Forsaken should have always been a Third faction.
The real kicker was, once Sylvanas became Warchief, I became super protective of the Horde, until BfA. BfA wore me down, I no longer felt a kinship with the Horde. It’s the same thing, Garrosh’s Horde/Saurfang’s Horde, It’s still prioritizing the Orcs and is discriminatory against the undead. The Horde will always prioritize the Old Horde over a new inclusive Horde and if it’s going to be like that I don’t want to be in it. I’m lowkey mad they didn’t make BfA about Saurfang’s xenophobia against the undead that he had in WoLK and took that opportunity to examine xenopobia the living has for the undead, instead they just made him the sad and relatable boomer in a changing world.
In that regard I understand Erevien’s hyperbole and their anti-Horde, loyalist stance.
And I am, like others, really mad at the double standards Blizzard has intenationally wrote, because it feels like a slap in the face sometimes. “Sylvanas’s tactics are bad! But here’s the Maldraxxi who use the same tactics, and you are supposed to love them!” There are people who sided with Saurfang because “Plauge bad!” who chose Maldraxxus as a covenant. People’s hatred of Sylvanas has doube standards because they like other characters who do the same evil things. I hate it, I hate Blizzard’s writing too sometimes. The fact that they did such a good job writing A Good War as an ojective take only to jump right into the BfA `pre-launch event’ retelling the War of Thorns to paint Sylvanas as a villian, it felt like a betryal. I was pacified when Danuser admitted that they made a mistake with Sylvanas’s characterization in BfA and promised more clarity in Shadowlands.
I think what sucks about the risk of identifying with characters like this is that, because only Blizzard ultimately owns the characters, the message people derive from their stories is ultimately out of the fans’ hands, and there’s always the risk of having that attachment blow up in your face should the developers deviate from what you thought/wanted/hoped they would be about.
Flipping the double bird and mocking the story can be cathartic, at least. And it helps de-immerse yourself a bit if you find yourself feeling that way.