Though this is most certainly true to an extent, the Thomas Zelling/Lillian Voss story arc clearly intended to show that the norm is exactly as Sylvanas suggested. That your loved ones will reject you as a monster, and that rejection will be amplified in your undead mind, causing you to lash out and prove them right… but also, there are exceptions to the rule. Though Voss was right about Zelling and his family, she couldnt have expected that Jaina would soften to her brother. Now, Jaina IS an exception. She had the luxury of being able to fully direct her hostility toward Sylvanas… but that doesnt detract from Voss’s character development in this arc.
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I mean, this questline is meant to show it exists, but I don’t necessarily know that it’s meant to display it as “the norm.” And even if it was, we know for a fact - from examples like the Gathering or Jaina meeting Derek - that it’s not a blanket standard for all living-undead relationships.
Sylvanas didn’t just suggest it as the norm, Sylvanas PUSHED IT as the ONLY outcome that could occur. So my point still stands.
Honestly, I’m not even sure why people keep pondering if Sylvanas is gonna be proven right in the end, when Blizzard’s already said they’re “not gonna let her the hook” - as in she’s done wrong.
The only way for Sylvanas to be validated at this point is for literally every other character in Warcraft to be entirely invalidated and completely complacent in their own demise. This is not going to occur, nor should it.
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yes I want validation for her. Like I said above, to me Sylvanas and the Forsaken feels like the family I choose. The Forsaken have themes of healing from neglect and abandonement especially relating to family which resonate with me.
I’m bet I’m not the only one who experienced the Forsaken experience that way. They appeal to the outcasts and those with emotional trauma.
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The best way to negate the Forsaken’s own healing from the pain of neglect is to validate their leader who neglected them by abandoning them outright after admitting they were useful idiots for her.
Look, I get that Sylvanas has a resonating element for you, but objectively, the character you want her to be isn’t what she is now, or is going to be. You want the Forsaken to heal and grow from their trauma? Best way for that to happen is for them to stand independently from a single individual, especially the one that discarded them unceremoniously to join up with someone who’s actively harmful to them.
Sylvanas was a victim, but she’s now turned into an abuser. She’s long past deserving validation for her monstrous actions.
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And let me clarify one thing. I don’t think the manipulations Sylvie used were untrue. There is that distinction. Even she admits the greatest and most effective “lies” are founded upon truths. And I do think she’s right that Humanity (even now) does pose a danger to undead. But through her own actions, and the way she used them, she turned that risk into a guarantee. And if you want a perfect encapsulation of these sort of manipulations … look at her interactions with Vareesa in War Crimes.
YES, Vareesa is the one to bring up the issue of killing Garrosh. She was deeply grieving the death Ronin, and that is not surprising. Its how Sylvie twisted that for personal gain that is so shocking; and revealing. That idea that she would use her sister’s grief and desire for revenge to enact her own desire to kill Garrosh and also knowingly isolate her sister from her Allies and family due to that crime … is problematic. Especially when she (unbeknownst to Vareesa), intended to kill her younger sister and raise her into undeath (and as she mentions in Three Sisters, it is a servitude position to some degree). And … then when Vareesa remembered she has two of the ugliest children in Warcraft still waiting for her and abandons that plan … Sylvie throws a fit about a “betrayal” (and how she’ll never allow herself to love again). Like … Holy Crap Sylvanas.
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i know what you are saying is “Haha your leader abandoned you! you made the wrong choice”
but I don’t actually feel like she abandoned me because I have what NPC’s don’t. access to her internal monologue in various novels, and short stories and a ‘fly on the wall’ view of her machinations.
Which in light of the No More Lies cinematic, portray her someone who wants to make the world a more “just” place and funny enough my moral compass is good enough that if she wants to make the world better who am I to try and stop her? that sounds great.
Clearly you’ve never been abandoned or betrayed by someone you love. Someone you inherently trusted because they were your family.
Trust me, ripping the heads off living wolves with your bare hands and sobbing into a puddle of their blood. Is the right kind of fit to have when someone you love treats you like you are inhuman and undeserving of basic respect and decency.
This is my point. And perhaps part of why I take such a seemingly hardline stance against Sylvanas. Even though I still would prefer her to earn a chance at that redemptive and healing path, even now. Or at bare minimum (and this is dark) allow her that release from her torment that she’s wanted for so long. But, I’ve always liked the Forsaken as a race far more than I like her as a character. And perhaps because I am such a huge Goblin fan, it was hard not to notice the similarities between her treatment of them … and Wix’s treatment of the Bilgewater. The only real difference I saw functionally is that he never cared enough to maintain a mask like she did.
The Forsaken need to be allowed to grow and heal beyond her. And as forced and bare bones as they currently are … I honestly think there are important roles for both Voss and Calia in that. BtS did create one REALLY awesome concept of a Dual Identity within the Forsaken People. One of the Citizens of Lordaeron, and those that would reclaim as much of those “selves” as possible if given the chance. And one of the Forsaken, and those who had to reinvent themselves because they didn’t have anything to return to. Plus a massive spectrum in between.
I do not think that any one leader can facilitate this spectrum. But TWO? Calia, who could absolutely represent the Citizens of Lordaeron side of their identities; and Voss, who could absolutely represent their Forsaken sides (both in positive, fostering, supportive ways) could facilitate that remarkable conceptual spectrum. You add in the Zelling method of recruitment, and getting them back to basics with nursing the minds of Scourge back to health (once Zoval’s influence is gone) … and the Forsaken of Lordaeron truly have something special on their hands.
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That’s nothing resembling what I’m saying. Sylvanas was a different person back in the day, one who actually was worth rallying under despite her rough edges and dubious tactics.
She’s not anymore. You didn’t “make the wrong choice,” things have just changed.
Yeah, I have the same, that’s why I’m so critical of her. The Forsaken didn’t hear her refer to them as disposable. I did.
Delusions of good do not inherently mean that the character is doing good. If someone went out and started sawing people’s heads off on the daily, then claimed they were doing it to “make the world better” (even though it was entirely indiscriminate killing), by your logic they should just keep doing what they’re doing.
The only real reason, by your own admission, that this is not damnable behavior for her is because you have an emotional attachment to her. Understandable, but your feelings for a character are not a credible argument for her modern characterization or actions.
… Vereesa didn’t do this. Vereesa respected Sylvanas enough to treat her like her sister and talk to her like one. She just got cold feet at the last second because she realized that going through with the plan Sylvanas and her laid out would mean she’d have to leave her children behind, who had already lost their father (and she would also be killed and raised into undeath, but she didn’t know this).
Not treating someone with respect and decency would be… I dunno… KNOWING this would occur, and choosing to goad your sister’s feelings of hatred towards her husband’s murderer to force her into action? Trying to force her to rely solely on her, abandoning her last family in the wake of her becoming widowed? Not telling her your plans to MURDER AND RAISE HER INTO UNDEATH.
Just… just mildly abusive on Sylvie’s part there, but sure. Vereesa is the one in the wrong here. But hey! At least Vereesa apologized for it later - didn’t see Sylvanas doing that for planning to have her killed, or even telling her that. Probably because she was PLANNING TO DO IT AGAIN in Three Sisters, but got cold feet.
But it’s ok when Sylvanas backs out of something, because she’s Sylvanas. You have an emotional attachment to her, not Vereesa.
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How was this a betrayal? If she hadn’t been so keen on using her sister for a personal agenda and isolating her from her remaining family, this story could have been a very different for Sylvanas. One where tragedy (in this case Ronin’s death) allowed for a genuine reconnect with her younger sister … and her nephews. Vareesa deciding not to abandon her children was in no way a betrayal of Sylvanas; beyond her taking it that way.
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How? Droite’s said largely the truth here. Sylvanas is an abuser, a manipulator, and a delusional who thinks she’s doing right. You’ve admitted that your only real defense for her actions is your emotional attachment to her, and your only real defense when contradicted is stuff like “you’re a narcissist” or “you have mommy/daddy issues.”
The only way Droite would be gaslighting you is if you had no personality outside of a character in a video game - you don’t, so you take criticism as her as a personal attack. It’s narcissistic to think that criticizing your favorite character must think that there’s something actually mentally wrong with the other person.
You’re more likely of being a narcissist than Droite is.
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And now personal attacks, figures.
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Get help.
stop being reactive.
Says the person who responded to critique of a fictional character with accusations of personal trauma and narcissism.
Physician, heal thyself. Kinda gross that you’d invoke actual abuse victims over a discussion about a video game, even if the victim is yourself. It entirely weakens a very serious issue when you’re so flippant about tossing it around.
The only person I saw gaslighting anyone here was you, by trying to claim that critique of something you like meant that there had to be something wrong with them. That’s textbook gaslighting, but I doubt you’ll see it that way.
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kinda gross to talk about my own personal trauma?
It’s a fictional character.
You all, (anti-Sylvanas stans) need to take a step back and cool off.
You’re not getting bullied. You’re having a discussion, and you’re choosing to take disagreement as a personal attack. And I’m not an anti-Sylvanas stan, another narcissistic take to declare that disagreeing with you must mean I’m against anyone who “stans” Sylvanas.
I myself have personal trauma, but I would never think to invoke it in an argument about a video game, no matter what personal attachment I have to a character. It would weaken it entirely if I tried to use it like a shield from criticism, especially when the criticism isn’t even directed at me.
You’re not Sylvanas, but you seem to be pretending you are to deflect having to come up with an actual discussion. This isn’t about your trauma, and this isn’t about victims of abuse. This is about a fictional character in a video game.
If you’re seeing it as anything but that, that’s a problem YOU need to work on, especially when you’re throwing about personal insults (very heavy ones at that). It’s supremely disgusting that you’d be so flippant identifying what you believe to be someone else’s trauma, and then glibly tossing it in that person’s face to deflect their opinions on a fictional character.
That is abhorrent. I don’t say this to gaslight you at all, I legitimately mean that is utterly shameful behavior
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At this stage, I’d like her to be put to rest – So Blizzard can’t ruin her character anymore.
Also it’ll end the hater-threads of people incorrectly referencing old-lore & incorrectly naming the motive at the times + we can also end the weeb lover threads too.
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You’re still deflecting.
I’m not coping with my feelings, I’m just calling it how I see it with you. Has nothing to do with masculinity - it’s stupid to even invoke that. Explain how anything I said was untrue. Actually stand by these tremendously heavy claims you’re invoking over a video game character.
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I mean, Lux is not entirely wrong lol! I do have some daddy issues. None that have any real relevance on this discussion of Sylvanas here, but they do exist. The whole “Watching your father slowly die from cancer over the course of 3 years when you were 12” is not exactly something that wont impact one’s development. But that was many years ago, and I’ve more or less recognized and accepted what effects it has had.
You are right though. Not a great move to pull that sort of thing in a discussion about a fictional character. No matter how much you relate to (or self-insert into) them. 
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Wow, I am so glad I disengaged from Lux much earlier in this discussion.
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