Thats not what I said… try to pay attention and make like the fonzie and be cool. I said that she has always had this characteristic of lying about not caring when she really really does.
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Right, but I’ve never contested that she didn’t have lingering feelings for her Family. That would be an absurdly flawed and wrong argument to make, as War Crimes and Three Sisters are literally about that very topic. My issue is that she’s never had a reason to really care about her Forsaken, more than her need to use them for personal goals. Which meant that just like with her arrows, the possibility always existed that should they cease to be of sufficient value for HER … she’d abandon them again.
Which is exactly what she did. She used them for a new objective, then bailed. Which is why I insist she is the Forsaken’s manipulative abuser. Which she absolutely is.
she did though because she saw them as her people.
she cares about them because they are hers.
Proof? Beyond her using the occasional term “her people”, which when she uses that it can also be taken in a possessive sense. Which means it could also apply to her seeing them as her tools and property; which she reinforces more than your baseless conjecture. Because the alternative is that … she didn’t care in that way. Which makes her come off as both a horrible person (which she is), and THEIR manipulative abuser (which she is).
Honestly, the absence of content on this one specific 10+ year old issue of Sylvanas after EoN does not equate to the opposite messaging of EoN. She was never given a proper motivation to care for them more as people, than as tools for her own personal use. And the Forsaken refugees around Org actually reinforce this, because they knew she NEVER cared about the Horde. That the Horde were just “arrows in her quiver”. They all just were led to believe that they were the exception … which they weren’t. And she says so herself in the “Loyalist” Ending … at best “she came to pity them”.
omg not this headcanon again.
she’s not the Forsaken’s abuser. That’s not canon, that’s your headcanon.
i’ve played a Forsaken for a long time, I’ve never felt abused by Sylvanas. If anything she’s always felt like she’s really close to the Forsaken Player Character, like a parental figure or a mentor, it feels like she cares about the Forsaken.
I think you are just trying to find reasons to hate her. Your are trying too hard to make it appear she’s worse than she really is.
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Proof to the alternative. Because I have EoN, BtS, and her 2nd abandonment of them in BfA backing my stance? What do you have that proves she ever gave a damned about them, beyond her need to use them as a tool? Or at least, care for them more as people than she cared for them as tools? Beyond your need to maintain your vision of her you’ve created. Beyond your need to take the words of a proven manipulative liar as gospel truth?
EDIT: She didn’t lead her Forsaken into Northrend telling them “you’re all my arrows for my personal revenge”. She didn’t head the Forsaken in Cata shouting “you’re all my meat shield against my afterlife!” She sure as hell didn’t rally the Horde at Lordaeron screeching “FOR ME!!!” She has always been good at keeping on a mask, and that mask finally slipped in her dual with Saurfang. She has never been as transparent a character as you are making her out to be. And your belief that she genuinely came to care for her “Bulwark” clearly comes more from a place of fear of what the alternative would mean to your image of her. In part, because you at least have proven you CAN’T see her as anything other than a victim. Her also being an abuser is not something conceivable.
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Here’s the Post War Campaign Forsaken Refugee dialogue after Sylvanas abaondons the Horde:
Forsaken Refugee: How could Sylvanas abandon us like this?
Forsaken Refugee: She’s never been loyal to the Horde.
orsaken Refugee: No, not the Horde. Us. The forsaken. We’re her people.
Forsaken Refugee: Not anymore
They don’t seem abused, just shocked that she would leave them behind.
I still trust the Dark Lady. This is all a ruse.
Oh, wake up! She betrayed us all. We’re nothing to her.
No, this is part of her plan! It has to be…
They seem just as confused about these narrative choices with Sylvanas’s character as we are.
I can’t keep living like this. Forever on the brink of war. I thought Sylvanas would bring us peace."
Yeah not seeing any evidence of being abused. Abandoned yes, possibly mislead, yes. but not “abused” it would be nice if you stopped using that word and come back to reality.
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Sigh … there is a reason I specify “Manipulative Abuser”.
- Distancing from Friends or Family.
- Distancing from Past Life.
- Distancing from New Relationships.
- Convincing their victim that even if it hurts, you’re doing what’s best for them.
- Convincing their victim that the world is a scary place out to get them.
- Convincing their victim that only you (their abuser) can protect them.
- Punishing them ruthlessly if they threaten distance from you.
- Gaslighting, making them question the validity of their own memories and judgement.
Sylvanas at one time or another has been shown to do every single one of these sort of classic manipulative abuser tactics to keep her Forsaken dependent and in control. Granted this is the most obvious in BtS (where she literally states that is what she is doing), but she even hints she’s doing this in EoN (where she’s proud of Lydel that he’s differentiating humans as something other). Even her Bulwark Against the Infinite "and “we’re just using them” rhetoric (that clearly persisted until BfA, as refugees imply they knew she never cared about the rest of the Horde) is a pretty standard method to prevent integration. So many of Sylvie’s methods of keeping the Forsaken in line were subtle takes right out of an Abuser’s playbook.
And the reason she would do all of this is fairly simple. If the Forsaken were allowed to develop true attachments outside of the Forsaken (be they Horde, or past lives) … they would become less effective tools for her. As their priorities would be split. And would be less inclined to sacrifice themselves so willingly. Why else do you think she took such issue with the Desolate Council? Especially their openness to “death” for those that wanted it? Because they were gaining some independence from her and her ambitions?
She is an abuser. You are right about this. Its a fact that a lot of people can relate to her because of this, not in spite of it. She has some pretty explicit neurosis. She was a cold and efficient military mind in life, trained to detatch herself from emotion in the moment. In death she is a shattered and far more toxic version of that. She fights with herself constantly. Lies to herself. She sees herself as aloof one minute, and the godlike savior of her people the next.
Thats a recipe for abusive relationships. Every single relationship Sylvanas has will be this codependent quagmire of extremes. Doesn’t make her 100% uncaring nor completely selfish.
It’s not Blizzards fault if you reject all nuance they have written into her character.
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stop.
this is rediculous.
She never distanced anyone from thier friends and family. The Forsaken were being hunted by the living.
Distanced from a past life, again because it no longer served the Forsaken to dwell on the past. It wasn’t something that was inforced by Sylvanas, it’s a Fordaken cultual choice because thinking about the time they were alive reminds them they are dead. She has momento’s from her past and wears the necklace her sister gave her, if it was outlawed Nathanos wouldn’t have given Elsie, Will’s wedding ring when he passed.
She never convinced anyone “If it hurts she’s doing what’s best for them.” wtf? are you projecting your mommy/daddy issues?
I will entertain the first two things on this list of your but the rest never happened, the rest is your bizzare abuser fantasy, that is projection, nothing more.
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I’m leading you against Arthas for your sakes. I’m expanding your ranks and attacking the Alliance in Cata for your sakes. She always frames these sort of actions as if she is doing it for the benefit of the Forsaken, but considering even YOU can’t tell me when she actually started caring for them more as people (rather than tools for her) … these were lies. She was doing these things (and sacrificing them) for her ambitions, while pretending she was doing this for them and their well being. Hell, this is exactly what she does with Saurfang to get him on board with the WoT for goodness sake!
EDIT: Ooh, and are we on to personal attacks now Lux? I mean, you’ve proven your stance is so insufferably weak you default to ad-hominid and strawmen attacks regularly. So, I must be making some progres.
yeah, keep talking you still are not making any sense.
Real talk here- and feel free to ignore me if this is uncomfortable- does this trait of Sylvanas trigger you?
I get it. I already pointed out earlier in the thread that Sylvanas is immediately attractive to me because of my childhood history with abusive female figures. As a traditional male, my twisted understanding of love was transferred from my relationship with my Sylvanas-like mother to a string of adult relationships with Sylvanas-like women. Sylvanas as a caricature of that helps me conceptualize that, recognize that and reject it when I see it in real life.
But like… if thats something someone already conceptualized and recognized, I could see Sylvanas just being another representation to reject. I’m trying to be empathetic here.
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First of all, completely uncalled for, get a hold of yourself.
Second of all, the events in Before the Storm completely paint a Sylvanas that does exactly what Droite is saying. The Forsaken have mementos and keepsakes of their past lives confiscated because “their past doesn’t matter now,” and that the Forsaken is all that matters. She only agrees to the Gathering because (aside from the fact that it will build her trust with Anduin so she can backstab him later) she’s banking on the fact that all of them will suffer horrific rejection and be pushed into her loving arms. She KILLS the Forsaken who reconnect with their families (even those who were trying to return to her) because she couldn’t have the notion that the Forsaken could rely on ANYONE but her spreading - she needed them hopeless and dependent on Sylvanas alone.
Speaking as someone who has a good relationship with my parental figures and has never really been in an abusive relationship, it’s very plain to see that Sylvanas is absolutely pushing a textbook toxic narrative on the Forsaken in order to keep them SOLELY in her court and no one else’s. While there ARE a good number of living people who reject the undead out of prejudice - even some there at the Gathering - Sylvanas definitely propagated the idea that ALL of the living were like this in order to kill any notion of reconnection.
That idea would give them hope in something else. Sylvanas needed them to ONLY have hope in her, if not complete hopelessness.
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As someone with a history in family psychology I second this.
I didn’t mean to be rude Driote when I conflated your projection with “Mommy/Daddy Issues” It’s not an insult, it’s recognizing the patterns and the trigger.
I have a narcissist Mother, I get it.
Since we are getting personal, because I was neglected as a child and I’m a woman, my projection of Sylvanas is different than Mawthorne’s, personally Sylvanas being so nurturing to the Forsaken player character actually is a positive coping mechanism for me because Sylvanas and the Forsaken feel like Family who chose to be family over family that you got by blood.
I know, because of that my take away from the Forsaken and sylvanas is different. She’s the maternal figure I never had, so yes I want her to be validated.
The truth is we all project onto characters we feel emotionally connected to, positively and negatively.
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No, what triggers me is the invalidation of her victims because she herself is one (and this isn’t from you). I understand that Sylvanas is a victim. This is the reason I don’t wish for her death, and I would be open to a redemptive (and healing) path for her … even now. Given the right circumstances regarding her twisted and broken world view. However, I’ve always been of the mind that being a Victim does not just wash away your own choices and actions; especially when those choices and actions create victims of you. ONLY that your circumstances be placed under consideration when dealing with consequences for them.
That is why Lux gets under my skin a bit. Because clearly they are incapable of seeing Sylvanas as anything more than a victim; and thus invalidates everyone she’s hurt as “ends justify the means” (hence all their double standards with other clear villains). You Maw, I actually like discussing with. Its engaging. And I do wish there was a point in Sylvie’s history that could be pointed to that would garner that positive change in her Forsaken relationship. It certainly would have been better for me if she did get such a motivation, rather than me sitting around waiting to see if my final question from EoN would be answered … which is sadly was. 
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Hi, I’m a psychology major, and A) what you said is nothing resembling what you should say to someone you think has parental issues, and B) if you acknowledge that Sylvanas represents this, then you would have to admit that her character is exhibiting the behavior and intent that you’re arguing she’s not.
So… pick a lane.
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wanting justice for her victims doesn’t = thinking she’s a textbook narcissist.
I want justice for her victims too and I don’t think she’s a narcissist. The fact that you think she’s a narcissist is entirely your own projection. So yeah, you should possibly examine the connection between Sylvanas and the narcissist in your own life.
I mean, I think that anyone who proclaims that her entire following - composed of thousands of people who look to her as their one saving grace in a world that’s largely against them - are simple “arrows in her quiver” and her “bulwark against the infinite” as if they were disposable has at least SOME narcissistic tendencies.
Or we can take it one step further - she’s someone who goes as far as to not tell anyone what her master plan is, but continues to carry it out in spite of the humungous death toll and insane amounts of suffering it causes on MULTIPLE planes. The fact that she doesn’t stop to think that MAYBE her plan is something resembling flawed hints somewhat at narcissism.
Textbook narcissist? Eh, maybe not. But definitely some form of narcissist.
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No you don’t. You want validation for Sylvanas.
You want their sacrifices to mean something, when she’s already rendered them meaningless. Your “justice for them” does not infringe upon your desire to see her “justice” enacted. She has sentenced thousands to the very same hell she herself was desperate to avoid. She manipulated her own people, and her allies, into a War designed to kill as many people on all sides as possible. She recruited new, unrelated groups, SOLELY to increase the pool for available sacrifices … and to pressure the Alliance into doing the same.
THIS IS MONSTROUS! And validating her twisted “seeing the world as it really is” will do nothing but prove her right in those acts. Because as you yourself “the ends justify the means”.
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