No they don’t, because…
No, you go straight to the maw. The arbiter isn’t the ruler of the universe. Some people don’t even get afterlives, and some people are annihlated in the afterlife. It ain’t based on morality. It’s based on circumstance.
“right” and “wrong” are not the only standards you can use to judge.
Welcome to chaos.
I’m not sure anything you just said contradicts what I said, but I don’t know that trying to convince me that Mythas isn’t pushing nihilism by pushing your own brand of nihilism is going to work.
Wow, I didn’t think one could actually misunderstand the story as it’s being told that badly.
You do now, once the system was broken. The people who created the entire universe, the ones who created the Light and Void, everything, they set up the Shadowlands, aka death, to work a certain way, and that way was based on moral judgements. It has been broken sure, but this was literally how it was created, from the ones who created all of creation, light, life, order, shadow, death, and disorder. Blizzard themselves said that the First Ones not only created the Shadowlands but all of that as well. Literally the universe, and all it’s cosmic forces, were built with morals in mind.
Objectively you are correct, there is right, there is wrong, and there is an infinite number of options that are composed of differing levels of both. But all judgement comes down to those. Two people can disagree on the definitions and circumstances of these morals, but that does not change the fact that the morals exist. And we can believe differently all we want, but the only morals that truly matter are those who built the system and created all of the universe, the First Ones. Right and Wrong within the Warcraft universe has a set definition pre-defined by these beings, and cannot change within itself. Outside of the Warcraft universe these morals and rights and wrongs can change and be interpreted differently, but not within.
We do not live in Chaos. Warcraft is not a chaotic universe, nor was it ever meant to be. You either do not understand chaos, think you do and are using the word horribly wrong, or you’re just trolling.
Okay, the dictionary it is then. We’ll go with Merriam-Webster’s “A state in which chance is supreme”, which sounds a lot like what I said, when I said that it was based on circumstance.
Morality in general isn’t the only standard you can use to judge. I suppose we disagree.
I obviously have not seen any interview where this was stated, but even it that is true…
Is that so? If they created a system that was so easily bypassed, rendering their own moral judgements ineffectual, then why do they matter so much? Are they even around anymore?
Says who?
Ultimately, if their afterlife system can be broken by Sylvanas or simply bypassed by a warlock with drain soul… why should I care about them or their system? It doesn’t work.
Given that not all players will agree with your statements, I don’t really think that they are examples of “things that Blizzard has gotten way with”.
You can say that again.
In fact, speaking of AU Grom, not only did Blizzard try to sweep his war crimes under the rug, they tried to make you feel sorry for him via attempting to villain-bat his former victims with that “Lightbound” nonsense.
I was rooting for Yrel at the end of that scenario; after everything AU Grom did, receiving a bit of “Lux Vult!” would be an improvement for him.
So when Sylvanas does it, it’s a-okay, but if people like Varian or Yrel do it, that’d be bad? “Rules for thee, but not for me” eh?
Sylvanas’ reasons so far boil down to escaping the afterlife punishment for her evil actions in life and undeath.
She’s like a thief and murderer in court facing life in prison, who instead of thinking “Maybe I shouldn’t have committed those crimes” thinks “The system is unfair. No one tells me what to do! Down with the establishment! Down with the system!” Sylvanas brought it on herself, but is blaming everyone else.
Once again, the word “genocide” stymies any nuance.
When she saw the afterlife (pre redesigns and ret cons) she had not burned any stupid tree. She waged war in less than honorable ways. Far from maw worthy. To her people she was a hero. Actually, she died a hero to her people twice. Two separate peoples! If Bastion’s purpose wasn’t a complete farce, she would be a perfect candidate, if Maldraxxus didnt want her more. But this was before they invented these zones for the purpose of an expansion… the Shadowlands in Edge of Night seemed to be the only afterlife… just a realm of darkness where you are tormented by shady figures. Where you go if you weren’t snatched up for The Halls of Valor, or other psuedo-afterlife pocket realms.
The system didnt exist when Sylvanas started working on avoiding it, and in The Battle of Lordaeron it seems apparent that Sylvanas was still operating under the assumption that there was no system. They have since designed the system with the partial purpose of demonstrating how unfair it is.
I’m not talking about killing the non-combatants of Teldrassil. I’m talking about plague-bombing villagers and lobotomizing Alliance POWs all the way back in Vanilla, such as enslaving the inhabitants of Emberstone village. I’m talking about reverse-engineering the Scourge plague and weaponizing it (Wrathgate may have been Putress’ betrayal, but the weapon he used was green-lit by Sylvanas). Those are all on Sylvanas’ head.
By the way, your talk about the system makes me think that Blizzard had no idea for the system but tried to make it unfair to prove Sylvanas correct. Problem is, Sylvanas’ idea of a solution is worse than anything in the current system (I’d take giving up my memories as a kyrian over servitude to the Maw any day).
I tried to come up with something eloquent in response to this topic. But this is the only thing that really makes sense to me.
No.
This is part of the problem with even exploring this as the main narrative. Since morality is relative and cultural, it will 100% feel bad to have some devs in california comandeer someone else’s characters and use them to tell us what they think should be good or evil… or more appropriately, how to distinguish escalating degrees of evil.
Like I said though, morality is cultural. For the forsaken, it was not reprehensible to use disease as a weapon. In the US, genital mutilation of a female infant is outlawed in all 50 states, but infant circumcision of males is legal and encouraged in all 50 states. Without getting into the dispicable sexism and how the idea that a female is born perfect and sacred but a male is born defective and dirty- and how that mindset could lead to the western evangelical purity culture that spawned the massage parlor shooter- it is worth noting that female circumcision is specifically noted in law because there are many cultures that deem it not evil, but good.
I should hope so. No matter how much pouting she does at the camera it does not make up for mass murder. You can’t argue some asinine pretense of moral relativism, either. She engineered an atrocity, a global war to get as many people killed and sent their souls to hell to be tortured into weapons. All to avoid her own punishment that is now richly deserved.
I feel like this goes back to Garrosh.
We can all argue if Sylvanas deserves redemption until we are blue in the face, but we mostly all agree War Crimes was the best WoW novel and Garrosh as a villian lead to some pretty good exposition and story. The more I compare Sylvanas to Arthas and Garrosh and Gul’dan and Sargeras the more I believe that all of these characters are good villians with redeemable qualities, and not one of them have been redeemed.
They have an opportunity to go in a different direction and show a villian actually earning a redemption and personally i can disconnect myself emotionally from the story and let that play out and see where it goes.
I also think a lot of people in this forum don’t want to admit that Sylvanas is a strawman to them, weither it be because she’s a villian, or a female character, or a “Yas queen” personification of toxic feminism… she’s a strawman for a lot of things, and people project that negative view onto her. I admit that I use Arthas and Garrosh as a strawman for toxic masculinity. I just wish people would be upfront about it without having to guess at people’s underlying motives.
As much as I dislike Garrosh or Arthas, and I personally project a strawman onto them. The way Shadowlands set up both of these characters as at least deserving of a shot at bettering themselves has my interest. I’d be a hypocrite if I could see their potential and not Sylvanas’s but I do see the hypocrisy of people who would give Garrosh and Arthas a pass but not Sylvanas.
If you ever see someone argue this it should set off some big red flags that they’re about to defend some horrible stuff.
maybeeee…because…they all…DIED for their crimes …first? Maybe they paid the ultimate price befor they got from us this chance? i mean, if we kill Sylvanas, she ends in the maw and we come back in 10 years Again, maybe we all will see it different aswell.
I don’t think they are giving anyone a pass. Acknowledging there were mistakes made and put on a painful possibly millennia long path of attrition is far from actively denying wrong doing while pursuing death for all existence serving the biggest bad we have so far met.
If Sylvanas shows regret, turns on the Jailer at her own cost , dies and agrees to work for redemption over a thousand years in Revendreth, knowing that backsliding means the Maw… few would argue that is not harsh enough.
The main thing is the first step is in acknowledging fault and working towards atonement rather than just digging a deeper hole.
I think you are going to find that this doesn’t completely cover Blizzard’s attitude toward Sylvanas.
Eh I can’t see them giving Sylvanas a pass as it basically opens the door to excuse any crime regardless of context.
I mean genocide of a civilian populations is one thing but the fact that she knew she was condemning those souls to the maw to become weapons for the Jailer is another. Especially when Sylvanas herself is doing all this to avoid that fate.
Its on a whole other level of evil to consciously make that decision. One that she made without any outside coercion or corruptive influence.
So any attempt to try make her regret and redeem herself would be terrible writing. There would be no saving the character as it would then mean any character in the universe is ultimately redeemable and we shouldn’t fight at all and try to save everyone which won’t work in this setting.