The vindication of Sylvanas

[Gomgrim-moon-guard]

I would argue that they have already set that ball rolling with Grommash back in Warlords of Draenor.

[Badmaa-nagrand]

sadly very true… The fact that the ending cinematic became meme because it was so stupid.

Yet Blizzard seem to be indicating they are going down the same path. Just shows how tone deaf the writers are.

[Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord (Irenaus)]

@Badmaa-nagrand

There would be no saving the character as it would then mean any character in the universe is ultimately redeemable and we shouldn’t fight at all and try to save everyone which won’t work in this setting.

Anyone being redeemable doesn’t mean we shouldn’t fight. That’s a non-sequitur.

[Badmaa-nagrand]

@Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord

Anyone being redeemable doesn’t mean we shouldn’t fight. That’s a non-sequitur.

Ironically this is the excuse the writers used for the cease fires/treaties with the horde a number of times now.

The sad thing is they are wanting it to be true but at the same time they want to keep writing this universe full of war. Its why BFA and its conclusion are a mess because it simply makes no sense.

The fact they tried to palm off all the hordes latest atrocities off onto Sylvanas and are now trying to make it seem like she may want some redemption is laughable.

[Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord (Irenaus)]

@Badmaa-nagrand

Ironically this is the excuse the writers used for the cease fires/treaties with the horde a number of times now.

The key difference is ‘anyone’. Are there times where you should not kill someone because they are redeemable? Absolutely. That doesn’t mean it slippery slopes into any situation where the cost of redeeming them is far outweighed by the risk of not taking deadly action.

[Mawthorne-lightninghoof]

@Ainhin-thorium-brotherhood

they’re about to defend some horrible stuff.

If you think I was claiming that bio-weapons and mass destruction are morally acceptable in my culture, I assure you that’s not the case. The point I was making is that, if the story is not building up to a theme of the inherent unfairness of the Shadowlands system, then they are once again really bungling the story.

The Arbiter is a machine that is currently offline. Bastion proports to be a realm for those who lived a life of service but is actually a lobotomy for the traumatized. Maldraxxus will take anyone who exhibited strength in life even if they did so in mass murder. Ardenweald exists solely to use mortal energy to rebirth non-mortal beings. Revendreth farms regret from those who feel bad about something they did, having nothing to do with the severity of the sin.

There is no moral highground in the shadowlands from which any of the eternals can judge mortals. There is no universal morality by which the entire universe of mortals can be judged. A Sethrak Queen who kills all of her rivals and rules with an iron fist as a brutally efficient, mass murdering dictator is a celebrated soul in Maldraxxus. Now, if a Vulpera judges her morality based on the Vulpera cultural concept of morality, thats one thing. But a third party cosmic system like the one that exists is fundamentally flawed. If thats not the point of the story, then Im not sure I would continue consuming WoW much longer.

[Badmaa-nagrand]

@Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord

The key difference is ‘anyone’. Are there times where you should not kill someone because they are redeemable? Absolutely. That doesn’t mean it slippery slopes into any situation where the cost of redeeming them is far outweighed by the risk of not taking deadly action.

Again as I stated Blizzard has used this multiple times to excuse the Hordes crimes. Yet keep writing the factions back into peace because they are “redeemable”. It has long since past the point where they keep claiming that. Certainly way too far to claim Sylvanas is based on her past crimes and the fact they tried to load all the hordes latest crimes on to her alone.

[Badmaa-nagrand]

@Mawthorne-lightninghoof

There is no universal morality by which the entire universe of mortals can be judged. A Sethrak Queen who kills all of her rivals and rules with an iron fist as a brutally efficient, mass murdering dictator is a celebrated soul in Maldraxxus. Now, if a Vulpera judges her morality based on the Vulpera cultural concept of morality, thats one thing. But a third party cosmic system like the one that exists is fundamentally flawed. If thats not the point of the story, then Im not sure I would continue consuming WoW much longer.

So if Garithos saw elves as nothing more than animals and culled them as such he would be beyond judgement of the Arbiter and never regretted those actions, should he go to Maldraxxus? Or what about Arthas who saw his culling of stratholme as the only way to save it’s citizens becoming mindless undead? should he then be sent off to Bastion for doing his duty?

Claiming there is no Moral high ground has to goes both ways. This means some of the most deplorable characters can get away with henious deeds so long as they believe they are doing the right things.

by that logic the Scarlet crusaders that died should all be in bastion as then.

[Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord (Irenaus)]

@Badmaa-nagrand

Again as I stated Blizzard has used this multiple times to excuse the Hordes crimes. Yet keep writing the factions back into peace because they are “redeemable”. It has long since past the point where they keep claiming that.

I disagree. I’d much more expect a nation or organization to have broader capabilities towards improving than a single individual.

But again, just because you should sometimes stop fighting to redeem someone doesn’t mean you always should. That just doesn’t follow.

[Badmaa-nagrand]

@Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord

I disagree. I’d much more expect a nation or organization to have broader capabilities towards improving than a single individual.

But again, just because you should sometimes stop fighting to redeem someone doesn’t mean you always should. That just doesn’t follow.

So in other words you expect it to be the Horde to prove that they had actually changed this time. All the while the Alliance should not give them the chance and attempt to wipe them out.

Makes sense I suppose.

[Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord (Irenaus)]

@Badmaa-nagrand

So in other words you expect it to be the Horde to prove that they had actually changed this time. All the while the Alliance should not give them the chance and attempt to wipe them out.

What?

I don’t know how you could extrapolate that from my comments.

[Badmaa-nagrand]

@Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord

What?

I don’t know how you could extrapolate that from my comments.

Well you seem to think that the Horde should be able to change yet also indicate that the Alliance shouldn’t believe they can as they have failed too so many times at the past and should seek to end them because that.

[Mawthorne-lightninghoof]

@Badmaa-nagrand

Claiming there is no Moral high ground has to goes both ways.

Yeah, thats pretty much what it means. When an assassin (who is just a sneaky mercenary) is in Revendreth, but Maldraxxus is full of mass murderers, the whole concept of “atonement” is called into question. The Scarlets dont see themselves as evil, so they would not likely go to Revendreth. The Accuser felt great shame about having killed her own daughter, despite it having been unintentional or at least something she wouldnt have wanted to do. That’s why she was in Revendreth.

@Badmaa-nagrand

by that logic Scarlet crusade should all be in bastion as then.

Bastion is not for those who lived a life of service. Its not a reward for a life well lived. Thats a lie. But lets say Nathanos nephew, who joined the Scarlet Crusade to hunt down his uncle, because he no longer believed that the monster he had become was something that should go on walking Azeroth- who was captured by Sylvanas and used to magically restore Nathanos own body- was traumatized by his experience hunting down his childhood hero, only to fail his charge and be consumed by the monster his uncle had become. He is almost definitely a candidate for Bastion. The very purpose of Bastion is to mind wipe someone like that, and put them to work ferrying souls. The kyrian are the grocery baggers and shopping cart boys of the afterlife.

[Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord (Irenaus)]

I don’t think I indicated the Alliance shouldn’t believe they can.
They can think that. I don’t know if they should.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

@Mawthorne-lightninghoof

ound in the shadowlands from which any of the eternals can judge mortals. There is no universal morality by which the entire universe of mortals can be judged. A Sethrak Queen who kills all of her rivals and rules with an iron fist as a brutally efficient, mass murdering dictator is a celebrated soul in Maldraxxus. Now, if a Vulpera judges her morality based on

That’s quite a leap to go from morality in WoW to complaining about circumcision law and the Atlanta Massage Parlor shooter. Every group has it’s crazies, what matters is the creed (before you point fingers at the creed, study the creed, not the crazies, otherwise I can point out similar on the opposite side of the fence in the Sutherland Springs Church shooter).

Going by your reply to Ainhin, you come across as wanting WoW to reinforce a nihilistic humanist worldview of yours (though to be fair, the writing in WoW is becoming more and more of a mess). The problem regarding WoW is if everything you said about that was true, Sylvanas’ “solution” is as bad as the problem at best, if not much worse. Sylvanas only began this path when she threw herself off Icecrown and had a vision of herself suffering in the afterlife. As a result it’s clear that Sylvanas seeking the equivalent of a “get out of Hell/the Maw free” card, and decided she can get that by going on a literal cosmic edgelord rampage. It’s like trying to fix a rat infestation in your house by blowing up your house.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

@Luxio-arathor

ylvanas deserves redemption until we are blue in the face, but we mostly all agree War Crimes was the best WoW novel and Garrosh as a villian lead to some pretty good exposition and story. The more I compare Sylvanas to Arthas and Garrosh and Gul’dan and Sargeras the more I believe that all of these characters are good villians with redeemable qualities, and not one of them have been redeemed.

They have an opportunity to go in a different direction and show a villian actually earning a redemption and personally i can disconnect myself emotionally from the story and let that play out and see where it goes.

I get the feeling you won’t reply, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I don’t consider War Crimes the best WoW novel. It was mostly good but had a few major holes (such as sparing Garrosh when people have been executed for less). I don’t consider Gul’dan or Sargeras redeemable, am uncertain about Arthas due to the question of external influence and didn’t think Garrosh was redeemable but am now unsure with him popping up in Revendreth. By the way, if you think those characters are redeemable, would you consider Yrel redeemable if she gets villain-batted?

I don’t see Sylvanas as a strawman. I see her as an increasingly villainous character who’s overstayed her welcome and has ridiculous plot armor. Garrosh, Arthas, Gul’dan and Sargeras (as of Legion) have paid for their crimes or are paying for them… but not Sylvy. For everything she chose to do, she’d better not escape negative consequences for it without a damn good reason (eg; she takes the Jailer’s place and is bound as the warden for irredeemable souls - with safeguards so she can’t escape her role)

[Luxio-arathor]

Anyone can be redeemed.

Sargeras was only trying to stop other cosmic forces from controlling Azeroth.

Gul’dan didn’t want abstract concepts like Fate and Destiny to control his outcome and wanted to find power as a way to atone for feeling powerless all his life.

Arthas wanted to save his people and in turn he doomed his people.

Garrosh wanted to go home and if he couldn’t go home, he would build a new home and try and recapture what he believed made the Horde great.

Sylvanas wants the best for herself and her people. She also wants victory over any force that challenges her or her people’s existance or thier place in this world.

And yes if they give Yrel the villian bat for being too dogmatic about the Light and choosing a position that is “join or die” then upon self reflection she too can be redeemed.

It requires very little empathy to be objective about the complexity of WoW villians.

[Mawthorne-lightninghoof]

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

you come across as wanting WoW to reinforce a nihilistic humanist worldview of yours

I dont have a nihilistic worldview of reality. And I dont want WoW to reinforce that. I want WoW storytelling to be consistent. I want it to be a feature of the story that you have horrible souls sent to Maldraxxus to wage war for the Shadowlands and relatively tame characters sent to Revendreth to attone for their sins. I dont want that to turn out to be an oversight. I want that to be the theme or it’s just evidence that the writers have hit new lows.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

@Mawthorne-lightninghoof

a nihilistic worldview of reality. And I dont want WoW to reinforce that. I want WoW storytelling to be consistent. I want it to be a feature of the story that you have horrible souls sent to Maldraxxus to wage war for the Shadowlands and relatively tame characters sent to Revendreth to attone for their sins. I

My mistake. Thank you for clarifying, I hope the writers bring about your idea if we stick to the current mold for the Shadowlands.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

I didn’t expect you to say that. There are some good points, though there are a few problems with your character summaries.

Sargeras fromed the Burning Legion to destroy the current universe, hoping a new one free of the Void will emerge after (pre-retcon/pre-WoW, Sargeras turned evil because he was so traumatized by the evils of demons, he failed the problem of evil; he decided good was futile and wholeheartedly embraced evil). He also only wanted to stop Azeroth being controlled by others so he could claim her for himself.

How much evil Arthas is truly responsible for is up in the air given Ner’zhul and Frostmourne’s influence (plus depending on the writer), otherwise I agree.

Sylvanas is selfish in the later expansions. If it’s her people or herself, Sylvanas will choose herself (“THE HORDE IS NOTHING! YOU ARE ALL NOTHING!”. Also, remember the Desolate Council?)

Not sure about your summary of Garrosh, and I’m not sure Gul’dan was fighting Fate or Destiny. As far as I can tell, he did wanted to not be powerless, and his answer was to sign with the Legion and use their power to make everyone else grovel.

If Blizzard had done actual nuance with Yrel, they should have had Yrel be conflicted over whether to move past the Iron Horde and have that be the source of the tensions, not the ham-fisted forgiveness with no restitution the villain-bat cos the writers have a fetish for edgy and a “muh fanaticism” story scratches that itch.